DXB

My sympathies to the OP; with even less experience than his, the situation could easily have been mine as I fumble through my first cold winter starts. This thread, while informative, has left me terrified both to follow the POH and to do anything not in the POH (except preheat- I'm 100% into that!). Right now on cold days I'm running boost pump for a few seconds until pressure needle is in the green arc, pumping throttle 4 times, then cranking immediately. This works 1/3 of the time, but I'm pretty lost on what to do when it doesn't work, and I'm not learning much from the failed experiences. In my mind, some options are: 1. pump throttle again a specified number of times and then try cranking (perhaps also giving me a chance to re-enact the entertaining Piper video above) 2. pump a couple more times while cranking (although this clearly didn't work out for the OP, maybe there's less chance of fire than #1?) 3. don't pump throttle, wait several seconds for fuel to vaporize, and try again 4. pump throttle, wait several seconds for fuel to vaporize, and try again 5. wait for 5 minutes after 1 or more failures (as POH actually suggests to avoid overheating starter), start over either with POH technique or another technique. 6. some other approach I've as yet to envision 7. give up and find a less engine fire-prone hobby, like sudoku or knitting I'd be curious to hear specifically how the experienced folks approach failed initial cold start attempts with the carbuerator.

No Dave just worked it on jacks and then flew it, and it seemed fine to him (and me initially after he looked at it). If this keeps up, I'll have to ask him to dig deeper.

I thought my issue in my original post was solved...but it's not . I had the gear looked at by a good Mooney shop- in their hands, locking the gear down worked fine on jacks and in the air. The next two times I fly it, I agree - no problem - either problem solved itself, or maybe I just got the hang of it. I flew it this morning to continue transition training and did 5 landings. The first two times, there was modest difficulty in getting the sleeve to lock up, but it worked ok. The third time, the sleeve seemed to engage but wasn't locked when tugged down, and I couldn't force it up again- it took another attempt of pulling the gear back up and putting it back down. The last two times, I had essentially the original problem - a huge struggle with both hands to get the sleeve locked up into the receptacle. I can see no relationship to airspeed or my technique as to when I encounter the problem. Pushing the bar forward in a continuous motion without slowing down as it approaches the block certainly seems to help, but that's what I did the times that failed. My instructor had owned an M20C with the Johnson bar for years and is also an A/&P - he is stumped as well. Other than that, the plane is a delight to fly - I'm rapidly learning the speed control/descent idiosyncrasies, and I dare say it's actually significantly EASIER to control in the roundout/flare than the Warrior I used for my PPL training. If I could just get the gear issue figured out!

Thanks I just sent a subscribe email to the group

Yeah am impressed- feels good to have the plane with them. I know where I'm getting my annuals.

Have worked it in the 100 to just under 120 range. Wind makes sense conceptually to me, but POH says easier at higher speeds under Vlo.

Ok I'm feeling like a buffoon now. I got the plane to my nearest Mooney shop (AirMods) yesterday. Everyone in the shop, including owner Dave, worked the gear on jacks today and agreed it felt just fine: "one of the easier ones we've seen". Feeling incredulous, I drove up and worked it myself, and well...I agree it works fine. If I am slow in pushing the bar forward for the last bit of travel toward the block, it is harder to lock it down, but not nearly as hard as I had found in the air, where I have to push hard with both hands on the bar to get it forward to slide the sleeve up. Dave will fly it tomorrow and we will learn if this is really true. It is entirely possible that it is just my own Johnson Bar newbie incompetence (I suspected initially but then managed to convince myself otherwise). At least I'm getting a couple of other annoying squawks fixed by them and my baffling tightened up.

Plane is at KPNE, and I'm trying to stay as close to home in Center City as possible. I've thought about trying to move eventually to S Jersey Regional or possibly Cross Keys but am not too familiar.

I got a T-hangar for my newly acquired '68C- $400. It was the only one available at this "modest" price at my nearest field. No concrete slab- the floor is uneven asphalt- great fun with the tow bar. In a heavy rain, 70% of it is covered with 1-2 inches water, which then turns into a skating rink with a temp drop. Oh, and did I mention there's no ventilation? Condensation settles on the wings and freezes. When summer arrives, with no fans to equalize the humidity, this will amount to parking my plane in a wet sauna after it rains. It might actually be better off outside! I would certainly trade my current situation for a less expensive open hangar. BTW, anyone know of a better available hangar near Philly?

Great topic that I need to learn better. I'm currently trying to update the equipment list for my recently acquired '68C- an eye opening experience. Many changes since it left the factory never made it to the w&b records. Then it was reweighed in '97, which actually shaved off 3 lb. But since '97, what's made it onto the official w&b seems equally incomplete (ignores added electric trim, new prop, a new physical panel, some of the avionics changes, all new interior, new paint). The official record now has only 888lb useful load. I'm hoping to get the panel completely updated soon, which will shave some weight. Would it make sense to reweigh at that point? Seems anything calculated is going to be way off, and given the history, and I'd like to know a semi-accurate weight/c.g. before I start carrying more than just my 140 lb transition instructor.

AmigOne, I bought this knob and want to do the same replacement on my '68C. May be dumb question, but bny advice on how to get the old one off? It's on awful tight, and I'm not sure how to get leverage on it without damaging anything else.

Great knowledge on here, thanks for help all around. Spoke again with my original MSC mechanic in GA (Joe Cole- good guy BTW in case anyone was thinking of using his shop). Joe said he would be surprised if a rigging/preload issue came up so soon after he worked on it. He suspected something having shifted or fallen down against the bar to impair the last bit of forward motion, as some folks suggest above. If so, it may be an easy fix from the shop on my field- it' a bit of a pain that I can't fly it myself to someone with more expertise currently. If rigging is an issue, Joe offered to talk to the guys and walk them through any related work by phone. This still makes me a tad nervous, and maybe I'll have to see about arranging a ferry flight at that point. More to come...

I'm doing transition training in my new to me '68 C and have a gear issue. A reputable MSC mechanic in GA who is also an experienced pilot and CFI did the pre-buy on it. He subsequently did work on the gear that included replacing all biscuits, which were '68 original, as well as changing a corroded nose gear spindle and bearings. Afterwards he operated the gear on jacks and also flew it himself - apparently the gear worked fine. I've flown it twice now while getting instruction from a senior Mooney instructor and former C model owner. I have no issue pulling the gear up- surprisingly easy. But I try to put the gear down at 100-120mph and have a miserable time. Most of the movement toward the locking block is easy and smooth, but securing it is a nightmare. This requires hard forward pressure with both hands for the last few millimeters to allow the sleeve to slide up and engage the pin. I spoke to the MSC mechanic and read up on technique again to make sure I'm doing things right, then went back and tried again. Still no luck. It feels as if something is preventing the last few millimeters of forward travel. I do notice that when locked up the bar contacts the plastic center console containing the flap and trim position indicators. But the console doesn't seem loose or incorrectly positioned so I'm not sure this is the problem. I spoke to the mechanics on my field who seemed to have little experience with the Johnson bar system and couldn't get it into look for at least a week anyway. I'm wondering if there's any guidance I can give them, or if i should just get it ferried to the nearest MSC in Robbinsville. Or lastly, is the problem just my own inexperience? This is what I thought after my initial flight, but now I'm doubtful.

Congrats! I actually also bought a '68C very recently as a first plane after shopping for an Archer for a while. I'm doing the transition training now with a Mooney Safety Foundation instructor and finding his M20C experience invaluable in getting to know this plane's quirks. Immensely enjoyable experience. Best of luck!

I wasn't quite sure how to undertake adding a gallon at a time without my own outside tanks to drain into or self serve fuel on my field to fill. So I tried out these measurements on a wood paint stick for my M20C with bladders, not knowing how different the tank/wing configuration is in the C vs the F. I checked the level on the stick before seeing how much it took to top off a couple of times (once adding 13/16 gallons per tank and another time adding 6/10). I positioned the stick in the notch at the back of the hole for consistency. The numbers here seem very close, so I added a few intermediate values on the stick using the curve fitting suggested above. As long as I stay conservative with my estimates, I think this will be ok until I can get JPI fuel flow installed.

This might be a dumb noob question, but I have a '68 C with 54 gallon bladders. Since the wing is the same, I'm wondering if these measurements would work as rough values for my tanks, underestimating slightly as an extra safety buffer given the slightly larger capacity. Or does the configuration of the bladders change the levels significantly? I also haven't been able to figure out what the bladders do for usable fuel quantity yet- not that the original 1968 POH even bothers to address usable fuel.

Sorry - did not mean the crank case itself- superficial rust was seen on a couple of exposed areas on connecting rods. When the issue came up, I discussed with a couple of other mechanics besides the pre-buy A&P, and no one seemed to think it merited a tear down. The engine was underused for the first few years after the last overhaul and then was flown a lot more, so the corrosion has likely been there a while. It's getting an oil change this week after breaking in the reconditioned cylinder, which will make metal so no point in worrying right now. I'll subsequently watch the oil analysis, screen, and filter for a few 12 hr interval oil changes to make sure things are acting stable.

I found out about corrosion in the crankcase of this 600 SMOH engine only after buying the plane. I did know from the pre-buy that one cylinder had an exhaust leak from a bad valve guide- the other 3 were good on borescope, and no metal was in the filter or screen. To recondition and re-install that 1 cylinder cost me $1200 total. Unfortunately pulling it off did reveal a few spots of corrosion in the crankcase and a single small pit on one cam lobe. But otherwise the lobes and lifters themselves were all in good shape- no spalling whatsoever. Wish I had known before buying, but a tear-down seemed premature? Doubt it will make TBO, but it didn't sound unsafe to fly. Per the MSC mechanic, the lifespan is unpredictable, but it should give plenty of warning with metal in the filter when the time comes.

I'm enthusiastically reading Mike Busch's new book on this old concept, and it would be hard to argue with the basic idea that infant mortality contributes to risk of engine failure. Still the graphs in the article, which tally numbers of failures in each category, bother me as misleading without denominator data. There is currently no way to compare the risk of past TBO engine failure risk with new engine failure risk accurately. Mike Busch states as much himself in the comments. What everyone needs is a clear system to determine when risk for an old engine without serious issues has equalled new engine risk on a per hour basis. It would not be hard to collect this data over a decade or so if a couple of data points were entered in a central database at annual for every engine in operation.

Yes if you could send me contact info that would be terrific! I see John Pallante on the Mooney Safety Foundation website, but I haven't found contact info, and I've gotten no response via my inquiry through the safety foundation site.

Thanks so much for the tips. I wondered hard if I should buy an M20C with its merits and scores of devotees on this board, or an Archer as my first plane (it's much closer to the Warrior that I trained it). The standard advice I got in the training community was the latter. Then I had a friend who trained in a 172 like you, made the switch to an M20C over 10 hrs, and has never looked back. I went with my friends advice- hardly a rational decision, simply picked the answer I wanted to hear. Interestingly he said many of the same things as you regarding the transition. I'll have to get to know the leaning issues you discuss, as I'm less familiar. The Pipers float a good bit more with excess speed than the 172s, so I feel decent at preventing this. It sounds like the Mooney is harder to slow down and also less forgiving if you drop it on early than the Warrior- I've certainly done plenty of such crappy things to my school's poor Warrior in my training without serious consequence.

I've wondered the exact same thing - could transition in an Arrow first but instead am going strait to the M20C...efficient or foolish?

Can anyone recommend a good instructor in South Jersey/Southeastern PA (ideally near KPNE) for complex training with simultaneous transition training into an M20C? I just purchased the plane and would like to start in December after my check ride. The training would be for a low time private pilot with experience only in Piper Warriors. Much appreciated!

I incorporated a lot of input from folks here to come up with a schematic and plan for the panel upgrade, so it's only fair that i share it (attached). Also attached is a friend's panel in a '66C that I used as a model for mine. Now if I can just find a way to get this done within budget...

Sure I'd love to see your '68 C. Let me know next time you're planning on being at KPNE and will have time. I'll definitely make an effort to stop by!