IO360 Turbo Normalizer

[gwcolwell]

Am planning an engine overhaul/replacement within the next 200 hours. Have a 1974 M20F Exec.

Have toyed with the idea of an IO390 upgrade. Now am of the opinion the cost/benefit is minimal when the ultimate goal is higher altitudes and faster overall speeds.

Have chatted with a gentleman at Aerotech. He's of the opinion there is no detriment to the engine if utilized properly and has had little experience with failures associated with installations of TN's.

Questions:

a.) Anyone on MooneySpace.com have experience with TN modification?

b.) Is there more than one STC for this modification?

Thanks for any input,

gwcolwell

[John Pleisse]

M20 Turbos Mod is still out there. Just search for the previous thread. It was an informative Mooneyspace disucssion. The modification in in the low $30's-k and requires someone with experience for the installation (add two weeks).

[Parker_Woodruff]

I would rather have a TN Mooney with an IO-360 than a NA mooney with an IO-390.

[John Pleisse]

Or better yet GW....find a salvage Rayjay kit for the F-model mod. There might be one out there or simply solicit for one. There are probably a few turbo-F guys out there who might want to go back to n-a, especially if they could make money doing it. Not sure if the STC is transferable. It is a manual wastegate system. Simple to use. Requires mx oversight to insure safety.

[M20F-1968]

I have a completely rebuild RayJay system for the F and E models. I was going to use it on my F model when I was rebuilding it, but my former mechanic made swiss cheese out of the SWTA cowling mod (long story) and I ended up

putting a J model cowling on the airplane. I have come to learn quite a bit about these systems and am happy to give you some insight from my experience.

There is only one choice of Turbo Normalizing if you have the original cowling - and that is the original RayJay system with the manual wastegate. The M20 System requires a J model cowling and J model airbox. The cost of putting a J model cowling on an F model is about $20,000 (about $2000 to purchase a used cowling, another $6000 to rebuild it, and another $10,000 to get it onto the airplane which includes mounting cowling flanges between the cowl deck/side skins and firewall, modifying the engine mount and cowl flap mechanism, new engine baffling, new spinner and bulkhead, oil cooler relocation and all the necessary fitting, riveting and fussing.

The original RayJay system has a manual wastegate and requires the original F or E model air box. It is not compatible with the J model cowling and J model air box. I assume you have an F with the original cowling and air box.

The system I have has been completely rebuild. The wastegate is much thicker than the original (as the original was just made out of exhaust pipe stock and warped with the heat). The exhaust pipes are 1 gauge thicker than the originals and are stainless steel. I have a completely rebuilt turbo and one with 300 hrs on it. The price would vary accordingly. It costs about $2200 to completely rebuild the turbo itself.

I have all the documentation, both STC's - one to put the turbo system on the engine and one to put the turbo normalized engine into the airframe, the parts manual, install manual, all drawings referenced by the STC's and the FAA approved POH letter.

This is as close to a new system as you will ever find in the world at this time since these have not been made since the 1970's.

I also have a second set of good Rayjay exhaust pipes for the same system.

I am looking to get my investment out of these parts. This site gives an error message when trying to upload a picture, but you can e-mail me at johnabreda@yahoo.com and I can send pictures.

You can also call me at (617) 877-0025 or send me your phone number and I can call you.

Thanks,

John Breda

[M20F-1968]

I forgot to add, I am looking for about less than 1/2 what the M20 system would cost, and you can use your original cowling.

John Breda

[jax88]

I asked this very question of a highly regarded MSC when having the annual done on my '75 M20F. His opinion was that there is no harm in doing so (obviously if done correctly).

[gwcolwell]

I have a completely rebuild RayJay system for the F and E models. I was going to use it on my F model when I was rebuilding it, but my former mechanic made swiss cheese out of the SWTA cowling mod (long story) and I ended up

putting a J model cowling on the airplane. I have come to learn quite a bit about these systems and am happy to give you some insight from my experience.

There is only one choice of Turbo Normalizing if you have the original cowling - and that is the original RayJay system with the manual wastegate. The M20 System requires a J model cowling and J model airbox. The cost of putting a J model cowling on an F model is about $20,000 (about $2000 to purchase a used cowling, another $6000 to rebuild it, and another $10,000 to get it onto the airplane which includes mounting cowling flanges between the cowl deck/side skins and firewall, modifying the engine mount and cowl flap mechanism, new engine baffling, new spinner and bulkhead, oil cooler relocation and all the necessary fitting, riveting and fussing.

The original RayJay system has a manual wastegate and requires the original F or E model air box. It is not compatible with the J model cowling and J model air box. I assume you have an F with the original cowling and air box.

The system I have has been completely rebuild. The wastegate is much thicker than the original (as the original was just made out of exhaust pipe stock and warped with the heat). The exhaust pipes are 1 gauge thicker than the originals and are stainless steel. I have a completely rebuilt turbo and one with 300 hrs on it. The price would vary accordingly. It costs about $2200 to completely rebuild the turbo itself.

I have all the documentation, both STC's - one to put the turbo system on the engine and one to put the turbo normalized engine into the airframe, the parts manual, install manual, all drawings referenced by the STC's and the FAA approved POH letter.

This is as close to a new system as you will ever find in the world at this time since these have not been made since the 1970's.

I also have a second set of good Rayjay exhaust pipes for the same system.

I am looking to get my investment out of these parts. This site gives an error message when trying to upload a picture, but you can e-mail me at johnabreda@yahoo.com and I can send pictures.

You can also call me at (617) 877-0025 or send me your phone number and I can call you.

Thanks,

John Breda

Your assumption is correct, 1974 M20F Exec. N862HL. Have sent you an email with phone numbers. Will contact you tonight after work. Look forward to chatting.

[fantom]

I would rather have a TN Mooney with an IO-360 than a NA mooney with an IO-390.

Me too, and either a future Tornado Alley Turbo, or KS Turbo for my IO-360 is a dream.

[gwcolwell]

I have a completely rebuild RayJay system for the F and E models. I was going to use it on my F model when I was rebuilding it, but my former mechanic made swiss cheese out of the SWTA cowling mod (long story) and I ended up

putting a J model cowling on the airplane. I have come to learn quite a bit about these systems and am happy to give you some insight from my experience.

There is only one choice of Turbo Normalizing if you have the original cowling - and that is the original RayJay system with the manual wastegate. The M20 System requires a J model cowling and J model airbox. The cost of putting a J model cowling on an F model is about $20,000 (about $2000 to purchase a used cowling, another $6000 to rebuild it, and another $10,000 to get it onto the airplane which includes mounting cowling flanges between the cowl deck/side skins and firewall, modifying the engine mount and cowl flap mechanism, new engine baffling, new spinner and bulkhead, oil cooler relocation and all the necessary fitting, riveting and fussing.

The original RayJay system has a manual wastegate and requires the original F or E model air box. It is not compatible with the J model cowling and J model air box. I assume you have an F with the original cowling and air box.

The system I have has been completely rebuild. The wastegate is much thicker than the original (as the original was just made out of exhaust pipe stock and warped with the heat). The exhaust pipes are 1 gauge thicker than the originals and are stainless steel. I have a completely rebuilt turbo and one with 300 hrs on it. The price would vary accordingly. It costs about $2200 to completely rebuild the turbo itself.

I have all the documentation, both STC's - one to put the turbo system on the engine and one to put the turbo normalized engine into the airframe, the parts manual, install manual, all drawings referenced by the STC's and the FAA approved POH letter.

This is as close to a new system as you will ever find in the world at this time since these have not been made since the 1970's.

I also have a second set of good Rayjay exhaust pipes for the same system.

I am looking to get my investment out of these parts. This site gives an error message when trying to upload a picture, but you can e-mail me at johnabreda@yahoo.com and I can send pictures.

You can also call me at (617) 877-0025 or send me your phone number and I can call you.

Thanks,

John Breda

Would like to pursue the purchase of this if still available.

Thanks,

gwcolwell

[N601RX]

Whats the status of the STC's for this? I talked to Robert at Rajay parts a while back. They originally owned the Mooney STC, but sold it to Modworks several years ago. He told me the STC was no longer supported. Modworks is no longer around. Would anyone be able to still legally use the STC? The permission statement on most STC's are specific to a plane serial number.

[Heloman]

Whats the status of the STC's for this? I talked to Robert at Rajay parts a while back. They originally owned the Mooney STC, but sold it to Modworks several years ago. He told me the STC was no longer supported. Modworks is no longer around. Would anyone be able to still legally use the STC? The permission statement on most STC's are specific to a plane serial number.

A while back I was surprised to find out that people do this kind of thing all the time, I work in FAA certification and have been told several times from different FAA PMIs or ACO personal that the FAA is about safety not protecting patents or license agreements (I’m not talking about PMA license agreements as that would include a production approval). My local FSDO has responded (surprisingly) when I asked a similar question that if I have approved data, they don't care how I got it, they're not even going to look at the 337. This does not exactly make it legal in regards to whomever owns the STC but I don't think you're going to have much trouble with the FSDO, like I said they likely won’t even look at the 337. Since it's not a field approval they just send it off to the big file cabinet in the sky. Any beef would be with the STC holder not the FAA; with that said, the FAA hasn’t been standardized since the moment they hired their second employee; so if you ask, I’m not guaranteeing you get the same answer.

[N601RX]

A while back I was surprised to find out that people do this kind of thing all the time, I work in FAA certification and have been told several times from different FAA PMIs or ACO personal that the FAA is about safety not protecting patents or license agreements (I’m not talking about PMA license agreements as that would include a production approval). My local FSDO has responded (surprisingly) when I asked a similar question that if I have approved data, they don't care how I got it, they're not even going to look at the 337. This does not exactly make it legal in regards to whomever owns the STC but I don't think you're going to have much trouble with the FSDO, like I said they likely won’t even look at the 337. Since it's not a field approval they just send it off to the big file cabinet in the sky. Any beef would be with the STC holder not the FAA; with that said, the FAA hasn’t been standardized since the moment they hired their second employee; so if you ask, I’m not guaranteeing you get the same answer.

The reason I brough this up was this.

21.120 Responsibility of supplemental type certificate holders to provide written permission for alterations.

A supplemental type certificate holder who allows a person to use the supplemental type certificate to alter an aircraft, aircraft engine, or propeller must provide that person with written permission acceptable to the FAA.

I recently completed 8 stc's for my plane and they all had some form of permission statement. Many of them had a statement written direclty on the front of them that the STC was only valid for my plane and contained the N number and serial number. I have no idea if anyone at the FAA actually verifys any of this or just places it in my file. It would be interesting to know if it is indeed checked or not. It would be bad to do a major mod like this and then have the STC/337 returned to you after filing it.

[danb35]

My local FSDO has responded (surprisingly) when I asked a similar question that if I have approved data, they don't care how I got it, they're not even going to look at the 337.

Well, 337s based on STCs aren't even supposed to go to the FSDO; they go directly to OKC. That said, you're required by law (statute, not just FAA regulation) to have the STC holder's permission to install an STC on your aircraft.

[Heloman]

Well, 337s based on STCs aren't even supposed to go to the FSDO; they go directly to OKC. That said, you're required by law (statute, not just FAA regulation) to have the STC holder's permission to install an STC on your aircraft.

My point is, right or wrong, STCs are swapped all the time, if it were me I would certainly try to get permission from the STC holder; but if I couldn’t, I would not scrap perfectly good parts. Try to do the right thing but don't get screwed out of thousands of dollars’ worth of parts.

[gwcolwell]

Please educate me on STC's and 337's

[danb35]

Gwcolwell, an STC is a Supplemental Type Certificate. It's one form (and probably the most common form) of "approved data", which is required to approve an aircraft for return to service following a "major alteration" (the phrases in quotes being regulatory buzzwords).

A 337 must be prepared any time a major alteration is performed to a certificated aircraft, or a "major repair" is performed by anyone other than a certified repair station. Depending on the nature of the work, and the data used to support it, 337s may be submitted to the local FSDO or to FAA HQ in OKC.

[danb35]

My point is, right or wrong, STCs are swapped all the time, if it were me I would certainly try to get permission from the STC holder; but if I couldn’t, I would not scrap perfectly good parts. Try to do the right thing but don't get screwed out of thousands of dollars’ worth of parts.

IMO, it's perfectly acceptable (morally speaking) to move an STC'd part or mod from one aircraft to another without the STC holder knowing about it, much less approving it. However, Congress, in its dubious wisdom, has decided to give a form of protection to STC holders that is enjoyed by no other form of intellectual property (and believe me, copyright and patent holders would love to have this protection, have fought that battle, and lost). Consequently, you're legally required to have the permission of the STC holder to install an STC'd product or perform an STC'd mod. Sometimes that's in the form of a blanket permission statement (for example, the Garmin 430W installation manual has one); sometimes it's tied to a specific aircraft.

That said, I really don't know what kind of enforcement mechanism is in place for this. I'd suspect the IA who signed off on the 337 for installing an STC'd part, without having an appropriate permission statement, would be facing a certificate action if discovered--but I don't know how likely it is that he'd be discovered.

[KSMooniac]

In this particular case with a seemingly orphaned STC, I think the local FSDO would approve it provided you have all of the proper parts and documentation to prove that you have the parts, and can install them correctly, and get them inspected against previously-approved data. I would certainly get my IA to ask his FSDO agent prior to buying the parts and installing them, though!

It is a shame that so many good STCs are stuck in the black hole created by one character's business practices...

[gregwatts]

I had a 71 F model with the M20 Turbo system. I believe PJ Aircraft in AVO did the install. The work was done prior to my ownership. Below 10K ft....no advantage. Above 10K ft.....definite speed gains! If you're not going to use oxygen......I don't see the sense of adding the turbo. Extra care and attention to temps is mandatory..............I do regret selling the airplane.

[gwcolwell]

From my research, am in need of STC #SA141WE for installation in the M20F and STC #SE32WE for installation on the IO360A1A.

In addition am in need of permissions to use this system from the STC owner of record.

STC owner of record is no longer alive, in business, or otherwise unable to "SELL" the "permission" to use on my plane.

To receive "permission" I need the FAA's written blessing.

To receive this blessing I convince the IA to ask the FAA district office for permissions.

Sounds like a lot of people to pay off.

[N601RX]

rayjay parts owns the one to install the turbo on the engine. They will sell you the paperwork for around $250. They used to own the one to install it on the mooney but sold it to Modworks several years ago. I would find an IA who regularly does STC's and see what they say would happen if the STC/337 was sent in to OK City. The newer STC's that I purchased all had a statement in red across the front of them that it was only good for my plane serial number. I would think this might raise a red flag, but I don't know how closely they are looked at before putting them in your file. I also have some older STC's from several years ago that does not have this statement on them, so they might not be as likely to raise the red flag.

[DaV8or]

...and either a future Tornado Alley Turbo,...for my IO-360 is a dream.

I spoke to the folks from TAT on this very subject when I was at the AOPA Summit last week and they said it ain't gunna happen. Basically they said, anything is possible with enough money, but they know they could never sell enough kits to cover the costs and make a profit. The kits would be very, very expensive. The only reason they have the STC for the Cardinal is they bought it from somebody else who took the hit on R&D and certification. In the many years they have owned that STC, they have sold 12 kits. Part of the problem they have with Mooneys is there are viable alternatives available cheaper to those that really want a turbo Mooney. The vast majority of folks would choke at the price and then just buy a 231, or 252.

On the other hand, like I said, they will do it if you have enough money, so if you're a millionaire looking to blow some cash... they can help.

[DaV8or]

Seems like a good place to start on this project would be calls to some of the better MSCs and see what they say. Some of them may have good relationships with their local FSDOs and may be able to get a field approval easy using the defunct STC as supporting documentation.