Encore TKS FIKI performance in moderate icing?

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

On a recent flight, first in a while to see ice, I ran TKS and saw some patchy areas. So, reading all the threads,I ran the system on the ground (windshield pumps first to prime), them high, then low. Wiped all the leading edges with a soaked rag multiple times. 

The hardest to assess is the vertical stab, since it's oriented along gravity and the fluid runs down... Then into the empennage boot, so you can't even gauge the drips! Nonetheless, the tail does seem to have a lot of flow as Dan pointed out. 

Reading also that fluid gets old, I am intentionally running the tank down low. How low do you guys go? If it safe to run the pumps out? (I think the fluid provides some lubrication)

If it makes you feel any better, the vertical stab isn’t as critical (although it will increase drag if it ices), and, well, you can’t see it from the cockpit so you don’t have to worry about it, right?  

[dkkim73]

17 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

If it makes you feel any better, the vertical stab isn’t as critical (although it will increase drag if it ices), and, well, you can’t see it from the cockpit so you don’t have to worry about it, right?  

Ah, the old forced night landing trick... Turn it off if you don't like what you see.

[Fritz1]

watching the drip profile on the ground you may realize that the tail gets much more fluid per foot than the wing, this is required due to the sharper radius, gut feel the horizontal tail gets about the same amount of fluid as the entire wing, I have never seen any ice accumulation on the horizontal stab with the system primed and running, occasional patches on the wings mostly around the stall triggers though, once the system is primed and running you can cycle between low and off to stretch the fluid and watch the accretion rate, those sports around the stall triggers are hard to get rid of, typically I run the system down in summer doing monthly priming runs, right now it sits at 2 gal, will top it off in the next week or so to start the season with mostly fresh fluid, I would not want to run the pumps dry, think the POH supplement for the TKS says not to do that

[Fritz1]

watching the drip profile on the ground you may realize that the tail gets much more fluid per foot than the wing, this is required due to the sharper radius, gut feel the horizontal tail gets about the same amount of fluid as the entire wing, I have never seen any ice accumulation on the horizontal stab with the system primed and running, occasional patches on the wings mostly around the stall triggers though, once the system is primed and running you can cycle between low and off to stretch the fluid and watch the accretion rate, those sports around the stall triggers are hard to get rid of, typically I run the system down in summer doing monthly priming runs, right now it sits at 2 gal, will top it off in the next week or so to start the season with mostly fresh fluid, I would not want to run the pumps dry, think the POH supplement for the TKS says not to do that

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, Fritz1 said:

typically I run the system down in summer doing monthly priming runs, right now it sits at 2 gal, will top it off in the next week or so to start the season with mostly fresh fluid, I would not want to run the pumps dry, think the POH supplement for the TKS says not to do that

Makes sense. I usually run it a minute or two on every flight in summer. Probably should be more deliberate. 

The dilutional approach makes sense. I'm down there now just below 2. Though I do have some suspicions about the sender. Has anyone tried siphoning from above via the fill hose (snake a line in)? I'm not motivated enough to drop the belly panel and find a way to drain it. Maybe if I had jacks... Probably over thinking this

[exM20K]

On 11/2/2024 at 10:04 AM, dkkim73 said:

On a recent flight, first in a while to see ice, I ran TKS and saw some patchy areas. So, reading all the threads,I ran the system on the ground (windshield pumps first to prime), them high, then low. Wiped all the leading edges with a soaked rag multiple times. 

The hardest to assess is the vertical stab, since it's oriented along gravity and the fluid runs down... Then into the empennage boot, so you can't even gauge the drips! Nonetheless, the tail does seem to have a lot of flow as Dan pointed out. 

Reading also that fluid gets old, I am intentionally running the tank down low. How low do you guys go? If it safe to run the pumps out? (I think the fluid provides some lubrication)

The concern with old fluid is that it will become acidic. The spec PH is between 6.5 and 8.5.  If you’re concerned about old fluid in the tank, should be able to collect some and test the pH as you run the system, or else, you could dilute it with known, good fluid to get the pH back up.

I have run mine down to less than a gallon, but I don’t think I’ve ever run it dry.

dan

Edited Sunday at 06:37 PM by exM20K
“Old” not “cold” fluid.

[Fritz1]

the sender float tends to get stuck when the engine is not running, however, when you look at the TKS fluid level chart in the POH supplement you also realize that that you have more in the tank than the display shows, display zero means that you still have about 1.5 gal, think this is a safety feature, display is zero in icing means you have to get out within this logical second because you have 45 min left at low flow at best, 20 min at high flow

[exM20K]

3 hours ago, Fritz1 said:

the sender float tends to get stuck when the engine is not running, however, when you look at the TKS fluid level chart in the POH supplement you also realize that that you have more in the tank than the display shows, display zero means that you still have about 1.5 gal, think this is a safety feature, display is zero in icing means you have to get out within this logical second because you have 45 min left at low flow at best, 20 min at high flow

My readout is accurate, as determined when I refill.

I cannot imagine an overly pessimistic readout being engineered in as a safety measure.  Many, many more mishaps happen because of fuel starvation or exhaustion. Would our planes be safer with deliberately pessimistic fuel gauges?

-dan

[Fritz1]

strange, but my POH says zero indication gives you 1.5 gal usable in TKS tank

[exM20K]

1 hour ago, Fritz1 said:

strange, but myPOHsays zero indication gives you 1.5 gal usable in TKS tank

You are correct. Same in current supplement.  I’ll probably refill to the top this week and confirm.

https://mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/SUPP0017H.pdf

lazy design of the indicator.

thanks.

[Little Dipper]

On 10/28/2024 at 2:17 PM, Beestforwardspeed said:

Proud owner of a new (to me) 1998 Encore that was equipped almost exactly as I wanted, especially FIKI TKS certification. 

Haven't flown it in cold clouds yet (and will still approach such cautiously), but it got me wondering.......

 I have pictures somewhere of 1.25 inches of ice built up on my landing lights and will post them if I can find them.   I'm not giving advice except for this.   I strongly suggest you trust no one and find out for yourself.   Select a day when you have multiple outs.    For example when there is a overcast layer between 4000 and 7000 and file an hour long trip IFR at five or six thousand and find out for yourself.    I've been flying with TKS since 1998 and there are comments on this post that I disagree with. 

Edited Monday at 11:50 AM by Little Dipper

[wombat]

13 minutes ago, Little Dipper said:

   I'm not giving advice except for this.   I strongly suggest you trust no one and find for yourself.   Select a day when you have multiple outs.    For example when there is a overcast layer between 4000 and 7000 and file an hour long trip IFR at five or six thousand and find out for yourself.  

I approve of this.  (Well, the altitude won't work for me given my location, but taking the post as I think the author intended, which is 'find an altitude that gives you plenty of opportunity to get specifically DOWN out of icing' I wholeheartedly agree)

This is what I've been trying to do over the last 18 months of owning my TKS Rocket

[exM20K]

@Little Dipper that glare fence inboard of the wingtip lights was one of the most efficient ice collectors on my 231. At night, they would glow like neon lights.

the unprotected wingtip will still accumulate ice, as will the landing light cover.

(hoping the pic is right side up…..)

-dan

[dkkim73]

8 hours ago, wombat said:

I approve of this.  (Well, the altitude won't work for me given my location, but taking the post as I think the author intended, which is 'find an altitude that gives you plenty of opportunity to get specifically DOWN out of icing' I wholeheartedly agree)

This is what I've been trying to do over the last 18 months of owning my TKS Rocket

Same here. I'll sometimes take an up-and-out if it's not too high. 

I think seeing things happen is worth a lot. Got decent bit  of ice in returns in summer, was an eye opener though manageable. 

Talking to young line guys here their school won't let them fly ice and surprisingly little actual.

Slowly expanding envelope of ops...

[Jetpilot86]

9 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

Same here. I'll sometimes take an up-and-out if it's not too high. 

I think seeing things happen is worth a lot. Got decent bit  of ice in returns in summer, was an eye opener though manageable. 

Talking to young line guys here their school won't let them fly ice and surprisingly little actual.

Slowly expanding envelope of ops...

Did that last week over GA. Already pricing out the TKS upgrade. The way I prefer to fly my Bravo, it’s needed. 

[exM20K]

On 11/3/2024 at 10:02 AM, Fritz1 said:

strange, but my POH says zero indication gives you 1.5 gal usable in TKS tank

You (and the POH supplement) are right, and I am wrong. Gauge read 2.3 on the ground. +3 (and a tiny bit more) gave me full, just like the chart you posted said it should.

Precision in inaccuracy! 

Thanks.

-dan