CRLB Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hi all, Curious what speeds/configurations you use in a typical M20R traffic pattern. I'd love it if you could walk me through what you would do, starting from midfield downwind. Thanks in advance,Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Chahrlie, Generally speaking..... 94 O1 I target 90 KIAS down wind, gear down + flaps. Abeam the numbers. 13" - 15" mp depending on GW, ALT. 80 KIAS base, full flaps. Trim way up to match flap effect. Target speed on final based on GW and conditions. Gumps, gumps, gumps (can't say that enough). Green lights and mechanical locator in place. What are your thoughts? Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRLB Posted November 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 That sounds about right. I flew "my new" 1995 Ovation (just entered into a partnership) for the first time on Friday. More flying scheduled for Monday-Wednesday. I'm loving every minute of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Search this site on the words ovation, eagle, io-550, and sometimes missile (similar engine), or m20m Bravo (similar airframe). I am sure you will find a wealth of information. LOP ops, fuel capacity, max FF, EGT and CHT, UL, real life distance and a whole gaggle of photos.. Good luck with your new ship. The most important piece of info seems to be final approach speeds. Know and control... Do you have previous Mooney experience? I have added a few small details to my post above... Are you anywhere near 5B6 or KOWD? (two hot spots for me). Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRLB Posted November 20, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Thanks for the pointers. I don't have any prior Mooney experience, and I worry that I'm spoiling myself for future airplanes by flying the O, but it's a problem I'm willing to have! I'm located at KBED, so not at all far from KOWD. As a transient, I would never want to deal with Hanscom, so I understand your choice of Norwood! I don't see myself getting into 2300 feet anytime soon, so no 5B6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangemtl Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Acclaim's a bit different from the Ovation, but: downwind I'm at 16-17", and drop from 110 to 95 when i put in a notch of flaps; maintain 95KIAS until I'm on final, and continue to trim the nose up until at thenumbers, I'm at 90KIAS. I drop to 13-15 on base and final, and adjust as needed on final. Personally, I use electric trim to near maximum on final, while manually holding the nose down as needed until I'm at the numbers; once I'm there, I've taken to deploying the speed brakes, and upon touchdown, returning flaps to baseline. I've the luxury of a long home runway, and so I'm not too worried about having to reverse all of the above for a go around. Might be a little too irreversible for someone on a shorter runway with the speedbrakes and no flaps, 'n all. Your mileage may vary. I don't worry too much about 'spoiling' myself for future airplanes with this routine. There will be no future airplanes, after this one. Just ask my wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangemtl Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Acclaim's a bit different from the Ovation, but: downwind I'm at 16-17", and drop from 110 to 95 when i put in a notch of flaps; maintain 95KIAS until I'm on final, and continue to trim the nose up until at thenumbers, I'm at 90KIAS. I drop to 13-15 on base and final, and adjust as needed on final. Personally, I use electric trim to near maximum on final, while manually holding the nose down as needed until I'm at the numbers; once I'm there, I've taken to deploying the speed brakes, and upon touchdown, returning flaps to baseline. I've the luxury of a long home runway, and so I'm not too worried about having to reverse all of the above for a go around. Might be a little too irreversible for someone on a shorter runway with the speedbrakes and no flaps, 'n all. Your mileage may vary. I don't worry too much about 'spoiling' myself for future airplanes with this routine. There will be no future airplanes, after this one. Just ask my wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cris Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 As "A" points out Gumps at every segment downwind, base & final ans his numbers are what I also use. However on final keep your airspeed at 75 kts or so until the flare. I find that you are almost out of elevator control with max trim ans full flaps even with one or two aboard. You can try slower approaches within a few feet of the runway which I would prefer but I think you will find the A/C nose will drop hard &/or the A/C will plunk down on the runway. The Ovation unlike the shorter body Mooney's just does not have any excess elavator authority at the slower A/S typically used when light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rainman Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Michael, How much effect does the speed brakes have at such low speeds? I'm relatively new to flying and Mooneys especially, but I was told that I should not leave the speed brakes out on approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Michael, I believe 90 KIAS on final is way too fast, and you're likely developing a bad habit. That kind of speed can lead to porpoising and prop strikes very easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangemtl Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Excellent question. I never put them out until I am physically PAST the numbers, and within spitting distance of the ground. I would never have them deployed in the pattern; they would not provide me personally with any utility. Can/will it land w/o them? Of course. In my narrow and relatively inexperienced opinion however, it largely eliminates any tendency to porpoise. Speed brakes are less effective at low speeds by all accounts; perhaps they're doing nothing at all, and simply lend a false sense of stability once on the ground. It follows, however IMO the same logic as removing a notch of flaps upon touchdown: get rid of lift. I've bounced a few times before doing this; I don't believe I've ever done so thereafter, and floating is a thing of the past. May simply be increasing experience with the aircraft rather than any contribution from speedbrakes. Works for me, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangemtl Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Quote: KSMooniac Michael, I believe 90 KIAS on final is way too fast, and you're likely developing a bad habit. That kind of speed can lead to porpoising and prop strikes very easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 It sounds like popping the speed brakes in the flare is a crutch, just like raising the flaps in the flare. I'm with Scott, if you have so much extra energy you need to do such things to land, perhaps you are too fast. I tried my first real effors short field landing in the J the other day. 3 people, 3/4 tanks, etc. 72 MPH over the fence, land on the first brick, flaps up after touchdown, and heavy braking. I stopped in 900-950 feet. Anyways, 1.2 Vso for normal landing, 1.1 Vso for short field. end rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFromCB Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 From my limited Bravo experience (same weights, same wing as M20R/M20S) I would say the following speeds are valid on final with full flaps with plenty of authority left for flare without floating forever in ground effect: -Base at about 90 to 95knots -Over the numbers: -75 knots at below 3200lb -80 knots at gross -85 knots when about 140lb over gross, only tested that one in a simulator ;-) I'd add another 5 knots for landing without flaps, add about 5knots to the above speeds for really gusty conditions, 2 to 3 knots for being really forward on CG. The above numbers are my experience after about 40 or so landings executed with my instructor under various loading conditions before going solo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Quote: orangemtl Strange; I've been taught to do so by two serial instructors, including a former Mooney factory pilot. By the time I reach the nos. I'm at 85. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N513ZM Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Quote: orangemtl Strange; I've been taught to do so by two serial instructors, including a former Mooney factory pilot. By the time I reach the nos. I'm at 85. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFromCB Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 As to speed breaks, I did a few landings with them out just for s's&g's, and no, they don't appear to have any effect what so ever at landing/flare. If I bring my Bravo at 90 over the numbers at 3200lb or below I will float and float and float forever, I'd say another 1500 feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Quote: N513ZM Mike - N513ZM (currently for sale on Aso and Controller) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyFromCB Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Mike, How do you get your ovation to slow down to 100knots on downwind before dropping the gear? I seem to be entering the patern, straight and level and still doing about 130knots with my power at 20"/2400". Unless I yank the power all the way back (bad for my expensive engine), unless I drop the gear, I see 130knots. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N513ZM Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Quote: Parker_Woodruff you getting something else? You sure have a nice plane... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Quote: astelmaszek Unless I yank the power all the way back (bad for my expensive engine), unless I drop the gear, I see 130knots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N513ZM Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Quote: astelmaszek Mike, How do you get your ovation to slow down to 100knots on downwind before dropping the gear? I seem to be entering the patern, straight and level and still doing about 130knots with my power at 20"/2400". Unless I yank the power all the way back (bad for my expensive engine), unless I drop the gear, I see 130knots. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xftrplt Posted November 21, 2011 Report Share Posted November 21, 2011 Quote: astelmaszek Mike, How do you get your ovation to slow down to 100knots on downwind before dropping the gear? I seem to be entering the patern, straight and level and still doing about 130knots with my power at 20"/2400". Unless I yank the power all the way back (bad for my expensive engine), unless I drop the gear, I see 130knots. Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orangemtl Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Quote: jetdriven It sounds like popping the speed brakes in the flare is a crutch, just like raising the flaps in the flare. I'm with Scott, if you have so much extra energy you need to do such things to land, perhaps you are too fast. I tried my first real effors short field landing in the J the other day. 3 people, 3/4 tanks, etc. 72 MPH over the fence, land on the first brick, flaps up after touchdown, and heavy braking. I stopped in 900-950 feet. Anyways, 1.2 Vso for normal landing, 1.1 Vso for short field. end rant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Quote: orangemtl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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