Estimated value of '68 M20F

[DXB]

An airworthy plane with a run out engine that continues to be flown but hasn’t been updated is different from the same aircraft that has been sitting for years and is out of annual.  The OP doesn’t specify which category this plane fits in.  I think only the latter merits the dreaded “project plane” designation.

[gsxrpilot]

A couple of notes on this thread...

1. There are no bargains in aviation. If you're retired with time on your hands, and hold an A&P with Inspection Authorization, this might be a good project. But it won't be a cheap project.
2. If you own the airplane, then TBO is meaningless and there might be a lot of life left in the engine. But if you're negotiating to purchase the plane, the engine is run out and the cost of an overhaul must be factored into the calculations.
3. A good turn-key, airworthy, ready to fly M20F, is worth between $70K and $100K. So I start there and work backward to see what the plane will require to get to that condition. As others have said, this one would likely require $70K to $100K worth of work, including labor, to get to that point. That should tell you how much it's worth the way it sits.
4. The best advice I got before my first airplane, was not to buy a project. In the experimental world they talk about how there are Builders and there are Pilots. If you're a Builder, buy a kit and get started. If you're a Pilot, get a plane that is airworthy and ready to fly.
5. If you can't afford an airworthy example of the M20F, refer to #1 above.

[M20F-1968]

On 11/17/2019 at 4:50 PM, DXB said:

If I had to do it again, this is exactly the plane I'd buy - a bare bones '68 F as a forever plane.  Unfortunately I've already made my C into a forever plane.  20-30k sounds very reasonable for this plane, assuming no corrosion or other serious airframe issues. The '68F was the last year of the J bar and lacks the wierd twisted wing of the '67F. I wouldn't hesitate to throw 120K into it and make it into the personalized forever plane I want - basically an older  J model with modern avionics and a  Johnson bar. That's cooler in my book than a comparably nice older J, for a similar total investment.  Folks who say an old F with no major airframe issues should go to the scrap heap are out of their minds! Have you compared what it takes to modernize and personalize a plane like this vs. buy a new one with similar performance features?

 

I have to chime in on this one as I have done just as DBX said.  My airplane is a 68 F.  It is a forever plane.  I started out trying to make it a very nice F, then decided that I liked some of the modifications the factory had done over the years.  I found a 1998 Ovation at Dallas Air Salvage with 400 hours total time.  I bought many parts from that plane and incorporated them into my project.  I hired a DER and changed the structural cage to make it like the new planes so I could install center stack radios and an instrument panel bow, retrofitted the Ovation interior, installed on board oxygen from the Ovation, landing lights in the wings, Ovation wheels, parking brakes, long range tanks, speed brakes, LED lights/strobes, installed a turbonormalizer, J model cowling and windshield, one piece belly, all J speed mods except inner gear doors, made an Ovation/Bravo style panel and used the Ovation glareshield, defroster system, installed new Ovation style door locks.  Then chose avionics, G600, GTN-750, GTN-650, GTX-345, S-TEC 60-2 with alt. preselector (1/2 of this system came with the plane), Avidyne TCAD, GDL-69, WX-500, ect (see pics).  

It has a Jar bar (Last year produced) but importantly, it has a J bar that is different from all the others (only on the 1968) and works much more easily and hydraulic flaps.  As a 1968, it has a twisted wing (it really is not that "wierd").  It was an attempt to improve handling in a stall.  

My goal was to build an excellent IFR plane,  that had relatively simple systems that were not maintenance hogs.  Given the manual systems, I can always make a push-rod.  A gear motor or back-spring not so much.  

I broke it down to a hull, and started with a clean airframe.  (see pics attached).

It achieves near 231 speeds on an IO360A1A engine which has historically been one of the most bulletproof GA engines (simplicity is good).  It is  a 160-185 kt airplane depending upon altitude, runs ROP or LOP,  and has an endurance of 7 hours plus reserves 100 ROP.  

It is a great retirement airplane in that it is not a maintenance hog.  

This can all be accomplished with a "cheap" airplane, but keep in mind, cheap only lasts until you get fully involved in the rebuild.  Then you realize you are building a forever plane and you must fish or cut bait.  I decided mid-project to turn this airplane into a very nice Mooney.  This lead to several awards, including a Lindy award (best of class) at AirVenture last summer.

A project of this type requires persistence and a good supply of AMU's.  By the time you are done, you could have bought something else that is very nice.  The advantage I have is a plane with all newer equipment, new wiring, new systems and a plane that I know completely.  There are no surprises.  

My engine was rebuilt to new specs in1982 (chrome cylinders) and sat from 1982 until 2003 when I bought the plane.  I sent the engine to Penn Yan in 2003 who did an IRAN and replaced anything that they thought needed to be replaced.  I gave them carte blanche to do what was right.  The engine then sat for almost 6 more years before the plane first flew for the first time in 26 years.  The engine has 400 hours on it now since Penn Yan's work.  Compressions 80/80 in all cylinders.  

You can do the same work on the plane you are looking at, BUT, you must be doing it with an eye to make it one of the most unique Mooneys out there and turn it into something that can not be bought.  That is really the reason to take on a project airplane.  In the end, I made a model Mooney that didn't quite exist.

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[DXB]

7 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

I have to chime in on this one as I have done just as DBX said.  My airplane is a 68 F.  It is a forever plane.  
 

Learning of your plane is precisely what made me wish I’d gotten a ‘68F rather than a ‘68C.  It is possibly the greatest J bar Mooney in existence.

[M20F-1968]

On 11/17/2019 at 4:50 PM, DXB said:

I

20 hours ago, DXB said:

Learning of your plane is precisely what made me wish I’d gotten a ‘68F rather than a ‘68C.  It is possibly the greatest J bar Mooney in existence.

Thanks for you kind comments.

John Breda

 

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[Ragsf15e]

12 hours ago, M20F-1968 said:

 

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So did you get the DER to approve an Ovation cowling on there or is that from a J?

Im really hoping The new “Sabre Cowl” works out because I’d eventually like to spruce up my 68F too.  The rest of it can be done with the right people and enough $$, but the cowl seems like an easy place to get stuck trying to find a salvage J and then get it approved.