Foreflight Mooney Bravo Service Ceiling Error Corrected

[alextstone]

Hi All,

If you happen to fly a Bravo and you use the Foreflight Bravo Performance Profiles, you may have noticed that the pre-configured profiles only allowed flight planning to 20K ft.  I contacted Foreflight and within 24 hours, I received the following response:

Hi Alex,

Grant again - We've updated our data for the M20M. You should now be able to plan up to FL250. Thank you for being a ForeFlight customer. Let us know if we can be of any further assistance. We are always happy to help!

Grant
Pilot Support Team
team@foreflight.com
www.foreflight.com

Kudos to them for such a quick response and fix!

Alex

 

[Rick Junkin]

Alex, do some research here regarding the power settings that most folks use for the Bravo. The Bravo performance profiles in Foreflight come straight from the POH - all but one are based on peak TIT, and the one Best Power profile is at 34/2400. I don't believe anyone uses any of those profiles, specifically the peak TIT profiles, due to a number of reasons of which I can't do justice with my own description. Take a look at this thread started by @DVA for some really good information as a starting point for running your engine. I think its safe to say that none of us run over 80% power, and those of us that run lean of peak run lower power than that. Oh, and the ROP/LOP debate is a fascinating subject to search on as well.

 

There are a lot of other threads that discuss "key numbers" and other techniques to help you to not push your engine too hard. The book numbers get you nice looking fuel flow and TAS numbers but are not kind to your engine. There is a wealth of information here to help you avoid premature wear and repair.

 

Cheers,
Rick

[alextstone]

Thanks, Rick!

I will study the posts this week.  As soon as I got the airplane home, I called my mechanic and told him to pull the cowl, order GAMI's, look everything over (even though it was just annual-ed)  and check everything remotely related to engine cooling and performance.  

Alex

[dfswing2]

Alex,  I just installed GAMI's in my Bravo and it took a lot of patience to get it balanced to less than 0.2 gph spread.  John-Paul Townsend @ GAMI will work with you to get it right.  I believe we went through 4 injector changes.  If you have any questions, PM me.

Don Swing

[Bryan]

@alextstone, where can I request profiles for a Mooney M20K 252 Encore?  You guys have the 252 TSE, just not the latest revision of the K model: Encore.   I have all the perf data and would be happy to work with FF to share the data if I was given a tool to use it.

-bryan

[alextstone]

1 hour ago, Bryan said:

@alextstone, where can I request profiles for a Mooney M20K 252 Encore?  You guys have the 252 TSE, just not the latest revision of the K model: Encore.   I have all the perf data and would be happy to work with FF to share the data if I was given a tool to use it.

-bryan

@Bryan, I do not work for FF.  I'll bet that if you send them a request, they will respond.  Here's the link:

 

https://foreflight.com/support/contact/

 

Alex

 

[alextstone]

2 hours ago, dfswing2 said:

Alex,  I just installed GAMI's in my Bravo and it took a lot of patience to get it balanced to less than 0.2 gph spread.  John-Paul Townsend @ GAMI will work with you to get it right.  I believe we went through 4 injector changes.  If you have any questions, PM me.

Don Swing

Thanks, Don!  I sure will.

[exM20K]

I worked with ForeFlight to get the M20TN model in their library, and they were very responsive in modifying some of what I sent them.  Since I have TKS and am fat :-) my plane is 8-12 knots below book.  Maybe it’s a little closer with the 3 knot add-back for the step and ASI errors, but... whatever...  

one of the great features of their performance modeling is the slider for fuel flow or cruise.  I just peel off 5% and call it close enough. This is something fltplan.com can’t do.

[daytonabch04]

22 hours ago, Junkman said:

Alex, do some research here regarding the power settings that most folks use for the Bravo. The Bravo performance profiles in Foreflight come straight from the POH - all but one are based on peak TIT, and the one Best Power profile is at 34/2400. I don't believe anyone uses any of those profiles, specifically the peak TIT profiles, due to a number of reasons of which I can't do justice with my own description. Take a look at this thread started by @DVA for some really good information as a starting point for running your engine. I think its safe to say that none of us run over 80% power, and those of us that run lean of peak run lower power than that. Oh, and the ROP/LOP debate is a fascinating subject to search on as well.

 

There are a lot of other threads that discuss "key numbers" and other techniques to help you to not push your engine too hard. The book numbers get you nice looking fuel flow and TAS numbers but are not kind to your engine. There is a wealth of information here to help you avoid premature wear and repair.

 

Cheers,
Rick

So what is the best ForeFlight profile/settings to use for the Bravo?

[donkaye]

Bravo:  Key number 53 or 29"/2400rpm for 75% power.  Maximum power setting I would EVER consider flying into the wind for a short time is 31"/2400rpm.  Fuel flow at 75% power is about 18 gal/hr.  Fly LOP at your own risk.  Expect engine and exhaust system issues if you do.  Some have gotten the Bravo engine to run LOP successfully; most have not and I am one of them.  I do have and recommend the GAMI injectors.  I fly mostly 15K to 18K.  I don't like the flight levels; O2 mask is uncomfortable and over all not a good environment for the human body unpressurized.  Been there, done that.  I plan my flights so I don't have to go there.  No matter how well you run your engine, preemptively overhaul the turbo, waste gate and controller at engine midtime.  Failure to do so will most certainly involve doing it at a time NOT of your choosing.

I love the Bravo and have upgraded it to the max (without TKS).  Owner for 26 years and nearing the time I will buy my 2nd reman engine (3rd engine).

[alextstone]

10 hours ago, donkaye said:

Bravo:  Key number 53 or 29"/2400rpm for 75% power.  Maximum power setting I would EVER consider flying into the wind for a short time is 31"/2400rpm.  Fuel flow at 75% power is about 18 gal/hr.  Fly LOP at your own risk.  Expect engine and exhaust system issues if you do.  Some have gotten the Bravo engine to run LOP successfully; most have not and I am one of them.  I do have and recommend the GAMI injectors.  I fly mostly 15K to 18K.  I don't like the flight levels; O2 mask is uncomfortable and over all not a good environment for the human body unpressurized.  Been there, done that.  I plan my flights so I don't have to go there.  No matter how well you run your engine, preemptively overhaul the turbo, waste gate and controller at engine midtime.  Failure to do so will most certainly involve doing it at a time NOT of your choosing.

I love the Bravo and have upgraded it to the max (without TKS).  Owner for 26 years and nearing the time I will buy my 2nd reman engine (3rd engine).

Hi Don,

Thanks for your insights!  What is your TAS at the numbers you mentioned? 

Alex

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, alextstone said:

Hi Don,

Thanks for your insights!  What is your TAS at the numbers you mentioned? 

Alex

To answer the question in a different way.  Down low the Ovation is quite a bit faster than the Bravo,  This is to be expected, since it has a minimum of 10 extra horsepower and with the 310 HP conversion 40 more HP.  Yesterday I flew with a student a 5,500 feet and the Ovation was 20 knots faster at 180 knots than mine at 160 knots, both at 75% power.  Up high is a different matter.  At 17K, I'll often true out at 200 knots; at 15K about 190 knots.  This is close to the 2% rule of thumb increase in TAS for each 1,000 feet of altitude.

[Rick Junkin]

On 9/5/2018 at 10:42 PM, daytonabch04 said:

So what is the best ForeFlight profile/settings to use for the Bravo?

Here are screenshots of the two custom profiles I created in Foreflight for my airplane. There are two screenshots for each profile as it doesn't fit on one screen. The first is for LOP ops, the second is for ROP ops. I don't use LOP below 10,000' but have the surface data in there for completeness. You need the Performance Pro (?) subscription to use these detailed profile models. I also have multiple "basic" profiles built for a selection of altitudes and power settings that work with the basic Foreflight subscription, and am happy to share if anyone wants to see them.

Keep in mind that I built the below profiles with conservative planning as my objective, which leaves an "out" for those unexpected/unplanned events that drive you to fuel conserve mode. Don't trust them until you've verified them in your own airplane.

Oh, and if anyone knows how to share aircraft profiles in Foreflight please let me know. I haven't been able to figure out how to do it.

Cheers,
Rick