Lycoming's 7/17/2017 SB632 guidance "MODELS AFFECTED: All Lycoming Engines"...

[N6758N]

6 minutes ago, AndyFromCB said:

I love their rosy estimates: 20 hours. Does that include R&R, because there is no way in hell you're doing a piston R&R in 20 hours. Fixed bids for a turbo 6 cylinder are usually around 40 hours.

I always laugh when I see those estimates as well. It might take that long if the engine was already in their factory on a stand, not covered by cowlings, baffling, and accessories....

[Cyril Gibb]

23 hours ago, 1964-M20E said:

Did LYC say what problems manifested themselves to warrant the SB on these bushings?

DIdn't see a response to this.  Anyone have info?

[flyboy0681]

I have a call out to my shop. My overhaul was completed in January.

[kortopates]

44 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

DIdn't see a response to this.  Anyone have info?

The bushings didn't fit in the connecting rods properly. It started with some engine shops complaining about them. But initially Lyc thought they weren't installing them correctly. At least one shop I know of stopped using them because they felt they weren't right; using Superior ones instead. I would expect most shops to use PMA'd Superior ones anyway to be cost competitive. Although I don't know the specific differences in prices but often the PMA'd parts are much cheaper than OEM. But some  people mandate using OEM parts like Robinson Helicopters - who is in world of hurt right now because of this.  

[jetdriven]

That sounds just like lycoming. Blame the customer. My factory engine persisted with 100ppm oil /50hr numbers.  First they said it was breaking in. Then it was forming flash rust on the cylinders over a period of a few days and scrubbing that off. Then it was forming flash rust on the cylinders overnight and scraping that off. Then it was high silicon causing wear.  Then the silicon is only 1ppm but it still causes wear. Then it was well it's just fine at 100ppm of iron. Regardless of their documents which say investigate cause  

At 500hrs now  the factory overhauled engine is using a quart of oil every 1.5 hours. My friend Mark's 500hr factory engine is doing the same thing. He pulled the jugs off and they forgot the piston oil nozzles.  

"Only a Lycoming factory overhaul can increase the resale value of your airplane by 10-20%". 

Edited July 20, 2017 by jetdriven

[Tommy]

8 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said:

DIdn't see a response to this.  Anyone have info?

According to Lycoming, it can cause "Uncommanded Engine Structural Failure"

Didn't know there is such a thing as commanded engine structural failure... 

Which button do I press?

[kortopates]

According to Lycoming, it can cause "Uncommanded Engine Structural Failure"
Didn't know there is such a thing as commanded engine structural failure... 
Which button do I press?

That red knob can cause commanded structural failure in turbo's in seconds. Not so easily in your io-360.


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[Guest]

On July 20, 2017 at 1:21 PM, jetdriven said:

At 500hrs now  the factory overhauled engine is using a quart of oil every 1.5 hours. My friend Mark's 500hr factory engine is doing the same thing. He pulled the jugs off and they forgot the piston oil nozzles.  

 

Are you referring to the piston cooling nozzles?  If they were missing how was the oil pressure?

I've heard of the nozzle coming loose while the engine was running, it makes a big mess inside.

Clarence

[jetdriven]

they had pipe plugs in the hole where they go. IIRC mine may be that way too.

[RobertGary1]

On 7/20/2017 at 7:10 AM, AndyFromCB said:

I love their rosy estimates: 20 hours. Does that include R&R, because there is no way in hell you're doing a piston R&R in 20 hours. Fixed bids for a turbo 6 cylinder are usually around 40 hours.

Why would you R&R the engine just to remove the rod?

-Robert

[RobertGary1]

Doesn't look like A3B6's are affected? My was a factory reman 3 years ago. 

-Robert

[jetdriven]

14 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Why would you R&R the engine just to remove the rod?

-Robert

I think he means R&R the 4 jugs.

[RobertGary1]

4 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I think he means R&R the 4 jugs.

At 20 hours? That seems like a lot of time especially since you only need to remove the rod if it's in the serial num. 

-Robert

[flyntgr1]

You know, it's kind of crappy of Lycoming to not pay for labor for engines that have these installed at an engine shop.  They caused this issue and that's not an easy SB to comply with.

Looks like i dodged the bullet as my engine was IRAN'ed during this time period.  I confirmed from Triad that my bushings were not replaced and that their supplier uses Superior bushings if they had. 

[Aviationinfo]

Lycoming just issued a revised SB, #632A.  It removes the limited Warranty section altogether.  Basically if your engine is out of warranty you may be out of luck.  I think, but am not certain, that if your engine has suspect parts that those have their own warranty which would apply.  I could be wrong so read it closely.

The manager at the engine shop where mine was overhauled in November of 2015 confirmed for me that my parts were shipped from the factory some months prior to the dates in this SB (phew!) but did state that these SBs tend to morph and can include more dates.   He also opined that a lawsuit against Lycoming will probably happen due to a lack of paying for labor / parts where necessary.   

Interestingly, Mike Busch recently wrote an article about how different the laws for cars and airplanes are.  With cars, the manufacturer has to make a recall and apparently pay for the cost of compliance.  With airplanes and their components, that's not the case.  That's not to say there's no legal remedy available though.

Here's a link to the latest SB:  https://www.lycoming.com/sites/default/files/SB632A Connecting Rod Identification.pdf

[kortopates]

Mike B has written an update on the SB 632A which he is fighting from becoming an emergency AD to be complied with within 10 hrs. In this write up, he discusses a number of things including how Lycoming is stonewalling us by not releasing any information on number of failures. Also is a good discussion on why Lycoming's recommended fix to the problem may be well worse than the disease as he puts it. 

See: Lycoming owners to be hit with a very nasty AD

This paragraph pretty well sums up how the fight has been going so far to have a sensible discussion with Lyc and the FAA about the issue:

Lycoming would not tell us how many displaced bushings have been found, how many connecting rod failures had occurred due to bushing displacement, what the distribution of engine times was when bushing displacement was detected or connecting rod failure occurred. They would not tell us how many engines they expected to be affected (although the number is clearly in the thousands). They would not even tell us how much the special ST-531 press-out tool would cost, or how soon they could get enough of these tools out in the field to perform the required test. 

The FAA would not tell us, either, saying that they were not permitted to release any of this information without Lycoming’s permission (which clearly was not forthcoming). We spent the better part of an hour asking questions but got no answers. It was absolutely exasperating.

We spent the rest of the time on the call trying to convince Lycoming and the FAA that there was a far less invasive and risky and costly way to deal with the displaced bushing problem, and we described it to them in detail. But my impression was that we achieved no traction, and that Lycoming and the FAA had already decided that SB 632A was necessary, despite the maintenance-induced failure risk. 

This follow up letter to the FAA after their teleconference Mike organized with AOPA's David Oord and some user groups provides more of in depth details including a far less invasive and less expensive alternative method of compliance of not removing cylinders until warranted by any of 3 other recurring inspections revealing evidence of bearing material.  See https://download.aopa.org/advocacy/0803_MSB_letter.pdf

[flyboy0681]

Scary stuff.
I did receive good news this week when my overhaul shop called to report that they used bushings from Superior. That was a close shave.