Sandel versus Garmin500, Aspen, Bendix KFD840

[Vref]

Just to throw it in the group!

Sandel 3500 with SG102 as replacement for KCS55A?

Anybody is going for this set-up?

Advantages disadvantages of this solution with respect to the competition...

Just wondering as already mentioned Sandel seems to be able to treat legacy equipment very well...ADF inputs etc...

Maybe  I am wrong but with the revisionary mode available you keep the vacuum ATT/FD wich is coupled to A/P anyway and in case it gives up you still have the primary display available on the eHSI...

In addition I am wondering why Sandel doesn't bring an "affordable" electronic ATT/FD (primary ATT like the 4550) on the market handling FD/AP steering in an 3- ATI case.as replacement for the KI256....of course if the AHRS would get certified as input for the A/P...?

 

[KSMooniac]

What is the fully-installed cost of the Sandel option vs. an Aspen today? 

[Cruiser]

For the very, very few KFD840 installs out there (if any) an operational glitch was found during a bench test that locks up airspeed, altitude, vertical speed, pitch attitude, roll attitude, heading, Rate of Turn, OAT, TAS and Winds!  Although this condition has not occurred in an aircraft in flight, the current flight solution is to limit flight to Day Visual Meteorological Conditions (VFR ONLY). Honeywell also recommends that pilots increase the cross check of standby instruments to identify this condition.

Basically this thing is worthless.

[M016576]

Quote: KSMooniac

What is the fully-installed cost of the Sandel option vs. an Aspen today? 

[M016576]

Almost forgot the panel pic.

Here's my set up....

[Vref]

Quote: M016576

Almost forgot the panel pic.

Here's my set up....

[Vref]

Quote: Cruiser

Basically this thing is worthless.

[M016576]

Quote: Vref

Hi Job,very nice, I will have my EDM800 in exact the same location, replaced by the color LCD. I have a gtx 330 but in Europe no weather .

Was the SG102 pin to pin compatibel with the old gyro compass system. How much re-wiring had to be done from the gyro compass and inside the panel..?

Thanks, I find it an intereresting set-up..a good mix of existing and new technology..

Do you have the software installed for revisionary mode if the ATT fails?

Luc

[DaV8or]

I've gotten sort of interested in a used Sandel 3308 after reading this thread, but what I'm not clear on is, does it still require a mechanical gyro to get it's heading information? I can only budget for used and I'm not that thrilled with buying used gyros. However, if I feel better about buying used electronics, is a flux gate all electronic, or does it have moving parts as well?

[M016576]

Quote: DaV8or

I've gotten sort of interested in a used Sandel 3308 after reading this thread, but what I'm not clear on is, does it still require a mechanical gyro to get it's heading information? I can only budget for used and I'm not that thrilled with buying used gyros. However, if I feel better about buying used electronics, is a flux gate all electronic, or does it have moving parts as well?

[DaV8or]

If I were do the Sandel, I would need all the parts because I have no HSI now. I would also have to get the whole deal used like you did to make it work. I saw a used 3308 on the Bennett used avionics site for about $3300, but wasn't clear that it included all the supporting instruments. Is it realistic to think I could get the whole kit and kaboodle for $3500?

Also, what about this projector bulb that needs to be replaced every year? Does your's have that?

[M016576]

Quote: DaV8or

If I were do the Sandel, I would need all the parts because I have no HSI now. I would also have to get the whole deal used like you did to make it work. I saw a used 3308 on the Bennett used avionics site for about $3300, but wasn't clear that it included all the supporting instruments. Is it realistic to think I could get the whole kit and kaboodle for $3500?

Also, what about this projector bulb that needs to be replaced every year? Does your's have that?

[Vref]

Quote: M016576

-JoB

[M016576]

SN3308 with a KG102A and flux gate on E-bay currently going for $1700... 1 day, 1 hour remaining.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Sandel-3308-plus-KG-102a-and-flux-gate-/290492372947?pt=Motors_Aviation_Parts_Gear&hash=item43a2b1d7d3

-Job

[Vref]

so many KG102's on the market now ..jeees....It would look that the most economical way to go glass is to find a sn3500 and re-use the KG102 or buy a very cheap second hand unit.....
I would hesitate for the 3308 though, as it requires again maintenance and not the option to have the back-up ATT etc.....

Anyway from the moment I will know the condition of my compass system. (my aircraft is still undergoing a major overhaul)..I will monitor for a SN3500 on the market...

Again as already stated I don't think  KFD, Aspen and Garmin can handle ADF inputs... a big part of the world still fly with NDB's for many years to come often supported by GPS but the equipement is still needed legally to fly B-RNAV Appr in europe....

Abybody has the wiring shematics for the sn3500 ...just asking you never know..?

Update : should better look..sorry..;-)

www.sandel.com/pdf.php/82005-IM-J_SN3500_Installation_Manual.pdf

[Vref]

Quote: M016576

SN3308 with a KG102A and flux gate on E-bay currently going for $1700... 1 day, 1 hour remaining.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Sandel-3308-plus-KG-102a-and-flux-gate-/290492372947?pt=Motors_Aviation_Parts_Gear&hash=item43a2b1d7d3

-Job

[M016576]

Quote: Vref

Strange there were o bids on this item....I am still gathering information but all in all i really like the Sandel (affordable) solution.

If I can find a very cheap 3308 I might go for it...

Job what is your experience with the slew function? Is a bit like GPS roll steering function. Can this be used in Approach mode?

I was thinking I have a 430 non waas unit (waas/egnos not of any use anyway in Europe for the time being..) that I could connect over ARINC429 to the sandel, My ADF would go also its a KR67 and a King DME as well...The second NAV in my case is a KX155 which I guess can not be hooked up as the VOR/LOC converter is in the analog indicator....

So even in case the KX155 can not be used as input I still would have (it would be great to have NAV 2 input):

NAV 1 from 430 Arinc

GPS from 430 Arinc

ADF from King analog

marker from King KMA20 analog

DME from King digital

Though I am not (yet) Instrument Rated it seems the sandels offer some interesting situational awareness functions like the bearing pointers which can be used as overlay when trying to intercept radials and in Approach mode trying to capture the localizer..in addition if there is locater associated with the approach

I really would like to here some input on this features from an use case expert on the aviating HMI point of view?

thanks

Luc

 

[Vref]

Hi Job,

Thanks very much for the link and the clarifications. Yes in my case the the KFC150 is hooked to the HSI in heading select and NAV/GPS mode. so for the sandel this would just mean rewiring the KI525A inputs to the sandel connector. and add marker, dme and adf signals to it. I still need to look what happens if I later on replace the KG102 by the SG102 as reversionary mode only works if the (new) arinc outputs on the SG102 are used to the sandle.....I guess I will contact sandel for this technical issue....

I use a AV80R for topo and back up which has a very good interface and is easy to use...So all in all for the sandel solution would work out great I think a good mix of technology size and price. For European Pilots (rest of the world) the NDB inputs are very important still...

If my KI525a is still OK I can get some money for that also recovering some investement....

thanks

Luc

[Vref]

Quote:

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SANDEL-SN3500-EFIS-Display-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1c16f0405dQQitemZ120643928157QQptZMotorsQ5fAviationQ5fPartsQ5fGear

About the SN3500 and my experience with it...

[peter]

Quote: Vref

What never seems to be discussed with Aspen units or even Garmin that for interfacing an A/P you need additional hardware adding up to the expense...(2500 $ for EA100 I believe for the unit only)..so all in all it looks like more closer to 20K$ for a full capable A/P integrated glass panel the cheapest version...

[Vref]

Quote: peter

Not exactly true. Everything you need to couple an Aspen Pro PFD to an autopilot is included with the unit.  The standard setup is capable of full lateral and vertical coupling to most GA autopilots, including GPSS and GPS LPV approach capability when connnected to GPS equipment capable of those functions. 

Installed costs are now in the $10k-$12k range.

The EA100 adapter is only needed if the operator wishes to also use the solid state EFD1000 AHRS to be the attitude source for their King autopilot, but this is by no means required.  For about the same cost as a KI256 overhaul, Aspen owners have a choice of adding an EA100, and never having to deal with a KI256 overhaul again.

[peter]

Quote: Vref

Ok Peter thank you for the clarifications, but a lot of King A/P's around no..?.  this adds up to 15000 $ if you want to get rid of the KI256 and not 20K$ then (comment accepted)...

Can I use my synchro ADF signals through the Aspen unit..?...

Mooney Pilots are critical....sorry for that.......

[Vref]

Now that is good news for the ADF bearing pointers on the unit...This will bear the attention of customers in Europe ...as I explained there is rennaisance ongoing in europe with ADF's....cheap to maintain as beacon...and the regulations still require it for BRNAV operations

Would this mean also the output will have a Heading synchro signal that can be used for e.g a WX11 stormscope whch uses heading information currently coming from the bootstrap of the KI 525A HSI..?..

We don't have Xm weather in europe so stormscopes are still very much in use..

I know...we are difficult..

 

[peter]

Quote: Vref

Would this mean also the output will have a Heading synchro signal that can be used for e.g a WX11 stormscope whch uses heading information currently coming from the bootstrap of the KI 525A HSI..?..