rocketman

I am sort of agreeing with you Lance. The TIO-540 is certified to run at 100% power ONLY if the temperatures (TIT, CHT) are within the parameters. I run my TIT at 1525 - 1550 and CHT at 375 or below at all times even during break-in which I am still doing. For break in I am running at 24/34 most of the time while cycling at lower settings periodically keeping the cowl flaps open and higher fuel flows (rich settings). This keeps all the temps very low (375 CHT and TIT around 1350} and fuel flow at 26 gph.Flying at lower altitudes also helps (less than 7000 feet). Eventually I will fly it at 24/19 with a TIT of 1550 all the time in cruise. Rings will not seat at 24/19 during break-in as others have suggested but rather will cause glazing on the cylinder walls. Annealing of the rings will not occur with these temperature settings I am using during break in. No matter the power settings, Temperature must be held at very specified ranges.

I discussed performance figures with Mooney at Sun-n-Fun recently and they reminded me that the engine is actually rated much higher than 270 hp so the actual performance figures should be adjusted accordingly. Just because it was derated to 270 does not mean that the 270 is 100% hp, especially during break-in procedures. Interesting thought. The truth of the matter is that there is no absolute truth to this matter!

I am just trying to figure this out as I break in my new engine. If I go to low on power settings, oil burn will increase throughout the life of the engine and the rings will not properly seat against the cylinder wall. If I go too high while maintaining comfortable CHT below 375 with the cowl flaps open and a richer mixture, whats the problem? After all the engine is rated to 2000 TBO at full power. I wish Lycoming would have published real figures instead of leaving us to figure out the "politics" of HP settings and engine break in.

Don - I am looking at the little red Lycoming book on page 3-48 which plots out percent rated horse power to fuel flow on the TIO-540 A series engines. This graph shows a 75% rated hp to a fuel flow of 105 pounds per hour or 17.5 gph. That fuel flow seems way to low for that power setting. Likewise the graph shows a 100% rated hp at a fuel flow of 175 lbs per hour or 29.1 gph. My 100% power on TO is higher than that setting. Something does not seem right about this graph. You know way more than I do Don so your expert opinion is again appreciated. However, running the engine at 34"/2400 is certainly not redline or 100% rated HP

Welcome Jimmy to MS. Nice to have another Bravo owner chirping in these quarters. I have had my Bravo for over two years and just put a Lycoming rebult engine on this month. See my posts elsewhere for further details. I love your panel. My plane also has the FIKI TKS system also. Good to have the piece of mind but don't go out and test the limits of this. It is still there to get you out of trouble, not to get you into trouble. Also, try to run the system every month to keep the lines open and flowing. When you pour the TKS fluid into the little inlet on the co-pilot side of the fuselage, this is a two person job, one-half of a person to hold the door open and the 1 1/2 to hold up the very heavy container the fluid comes in. Use a clean filter when pouring it. Don't run it (unless you have to) just before you land at your home airport or you'll be looking at fluid on the floor for a long time. I have the Aspen Evolution and 430 WAAS, kind of sparce compared to your G600. I'm jealous. A couple of other hints that I use is to run the engine at low power settings (like under 1000 RPM) to prevent turbo coking before you shut it down. Also as soon as you shut the engine, get out and pull out the oil dip stick. You will immediately see water moisture coming out of the engine. This is the stuff you don't want to sit around since it causes corrosion and all the harmful things to lifters, lobes, etc. I keep it out until I am ready to leave the hanger, then I connect my home made industrial strength dehumidifier using the top end DeVibliss dehumidifier that is used for painting expensive European cars. This is powered by a commercial grade pump that is used for outdoor ponds. None of the pickle jars and a couple of teaspoons of Silica to prevent corrosion for me. I then hook one end up to the exhaust pipe to soak the cylinders with the exhaust valve open and the other end through the oil dipstick inlet to soak the cylinders with the air intake valves opened. Using this method, I basically soak the engine environment with very very low Relative Humidity air. Does it work? Who knows! It makes me feel like I am doing everything I can for the engine. Kind of like stories everyone has about which oil is the best. Keep posting questions and concerns. Happy Flying Ron Dubin

Good Topic Dave because I have been studying these numbers for a while. I have been using the magic number of 58 (MP + MPH) for break in at 75% power for the past few weeks on my Factory Rebuilt engine and after 8 hours there is negligible oil burn (1/4 quart from "topping" the oil sump at the10 quart limit) and CHT's are now around 375 at the 58 setting. I did look at your post before I first flew the engine and I guess since Mike Elliott and the PPP both agreed on 58, I used it, taking nothing away from Don Kaye. I bought the factory rebuild after putting 2100 TT on the Bravo even though the engine was strong, smooth, good compressions (except one cylinder), and very little oil burn, clean filter and oil analysis. I did it because I do fly my family and friends over mountainous terrain. I asked Don Maxwell at Oshkosh last year if Bravo owners ever go over TBO and he said yes, all the time. But only over it by a few hundred hours. So that sealed the deal and started talking to Lycoming at the booth there in Oshkosh. So I am going to fly another 8 - 10 hours at my calculated 75% power than come down to 65% power or lower, 29/2400 seems good. So if and when you do change out your engine, These are the things I have learned: 1. Fly for at least two hours 2. Stay around the airport - don't go wondering just yet. Things can happen and the weakest chain will probably break during this time 3. Do full power take-off but power back as soon as it is safe to minimize engine heat 4. Do very very shallow climbs. Your engine will love you for this. In the Bravo, I used around 130 knot climb speed (normally after break in I always climb at 120 knots) 5. Keep cowl flaps open. You won't hurt the flaps by keeping them open 6. CHT's will creep up over 400 quickly - Don't let your engine stay there. Check your baffling before you depart on your first flight 7. Read Lycoming's and Continental's recommendations on first flight power settings and use it. 8. Don't even try to go LOP (in fair disclosure, I never go LOP. It's like half choking a marathon runner to use less oxygen to burn less energy to keep their temp's down during a 26.2 mile race) 9. Use speed brakes while descending (as you should always) to keep the power settings up as long as possible 10. Read your engine instruments very carefully during the entire flight. Pretend like their your attitude indicator during an IFR flight. Bring a co-pilot with you if necessary to help share in the work load 11. Stay at lower altitudes to increase airflow and engine cooling 12. Change your oil, filter, and check screen and filter after the two hour flight. It's a pain to do and who wants to go throw out perfectly good oil but "just do it" 13. During this flight, use all your 5 senses to help monitor your engine - sight, hearing, smell, touch, and taste (well maybe not the latter) Ron Dubin

So yesterday I flew for nearly 3 hours mostly at 34/24 for the first 1 1/2 hours then alternately between 32 MP 28 MP then 34/25 for a few minutes. Engine which was a Lycoming rebuilt flew perfectly. After all the fun I had at ECP, flew to my home airport in Northeast TN. 2 1/2 flight. No problem. Very little oil burn if any but CHT's still a little high maintaing 5500 MSL. Cowl flaps open TIT around 1320 and CHT at 375 on ship CHT. Had to keep cowl flaps open to maintain these CHT values. JPI CHT was much less at roughly 330 so I ignored that value. After 5 hours TT on engine, I will still mostly do long cross country trips at high power settings while always maintaining CHT 375-380 until maybe 50 hours. I am using Phillips 20/50 XC AD oil (and yes AD oil is require by Lycoming on turbo engines) and changed the oil, filter, screen after the first 2 1/2 hours before my first XC flight. Some metal specs in oil filter as expected on a new or overhauled engine. Will stay at low attitudes for a while to increasing cooling since I am particular of not going over 400 CHT. Please someone explain to me why cars don't need a break in like aircraft engines. This game gets old very quickly. And don't ask how much headache and money this whole ordeal has costed me. Ron

I have noticed that all 6 of my JPI CHT probes on my Bravo runs very low low around 230 to 260 while my ship CHT probe runs typically 375. Which probes are more accurate? Do they have separate k probes for different applications? The JPI probes are attached to the cylinder directly and not around the spark plug which I think is a better way to measure the temps. Any help is appreciated. Ron

What Tls was saying I believe is not to pull back throttle from altitude. naturally the throttle has to be pulled back on landing Well my day has come. What started out as Oshkosk looking at the rebuilt TIO-540-AF1B at the overhaul price is coming to reality at 10 AM at KECP. I'll let u know how it went. Tls had good points and I plan on running 34/24 with cowl flaps open and adjusting RPM during the second hour. I am using AD oil as per 1427C and Phillips XC oil. An oviation friend of mine is also coming to help watch the temps and to break the boredom of circling the airport for 2 hours. The F-22 training base is here at Tyndall so maybe we can look for them after everything settles down Ron

I am going to fly my factory rebuilt engine on my Bravo plane this weekend. Lycoming recommends flying the engine between 70-75% power. The POH does not indicate the MP and RPM settings. Any help on breaking this engine TIO-540-AF1B engine would be appreciated. I have read the Lycoming Flyer and understand the details.

For those who attended the Mooney Summit in the past - remember this picture?

I know the factory can rebuild and overhaul both the A3B6 and A3B6D. But why would you want to keep the "D" if you can go with the " "

Still dealing with these parts. Nobody seems to have them anywhere. No simple fix. The scat or scet or whatever the material is has a rectangular form in the middle to fit in the cowling. My mechanic can fix it but buying a used replacement seems easier. Does anyone know of any Bravo being parted out?

Don't forget to compare the missions of a turbo (in a Bravo) vs non turbo or turbo normalized in a Bo. Different missions, Different Purposes. For me, I like the Turbo M20M and Rocket like other people like the Z06 Corvettes. Their faster and more complex. But unlike a car where the speed limit is the same for every make, style, and brand, airplanes are different. Plus, unlike cars again where the weather is the same for everyone on the same highway, airway weather in flight is completely different at different altitudes. I like the options of choosing. Sorry for digressing off the subject a bit.

Forgot to mention, their insurance company will pay to have your plane flown to another facility usually anywhere in the USA so if you feel uncomfortable, let someone else do the flying

DId you mention they wanted to bondo the leading edge? OMG NO WAY. Reskin the thing, get lots of pictures, make sure someone other then your shop does the work even if you have to get a ferry permit, take to to an MSC that has a good reputation on fixing these things, adjust for damage history, be involved, express frustration and talk to their insurance agency directly, You need to see either through pictures or directly if there is any damage to the underlying skins. And BTW, how come they do not know what happened to the airplane? Make sure the repaired wing does not leaf after repair and if you want to be abundantly cautious take it to Paul Beck in WIlmar MN to inspect it. Get your insurance company involved to be sure your doing the right things, stay informed and connected. Don't accept anything short of this. And always remember, document everything in the logs and get OMG parts from Mooney, not salvage. Your the pilot here, not them. Keep up informed on whats going on.

don't have pictures since the engine is being replaced in another area of the country but will get my mechanic to send me a picture. It is not routinely replaced on engine exchange. Mooney says this will take up to 2 months to make from their distributors. Anyone know who makes these parts? My plane is AOG and I can't believe it would take this long

Not available from any MSC including LASAR. Mooney will have to make these meaning $$$ and time.

I just received my factory rebuilt TI-540-AF1B for my 1993 Bravo. After taking the old engine off my mechanic discovered that there are two air ducts that needed to be replaced that goes from the front of the cowling to the intercooler. The part numbers are 880102-001 and 650256-001. Anyone know who might be parting out a Bravo?

Why not a factory Overhaul or reman. First time run gets a reman for overhaul price for engines under 20 years old. No guessing on parts. All factory parts. Fixed costs. No questions so long as the engine was running. Maybe a little bit more, but resale value much higher. IMHO. Roller tappets, known quality, known company, long term existence and will be around for a lot longer, known guaranteed warranty, answers to all of aviation community, and they after all built your engine in the first place.

That's a good argument and one that I have always heard before. Catastrophic engine failures do occur but rarely. 250 hours of break-in time probably in excess of whats needed. Maybe 50 or so. I do understand your point however. Don't you hate it when TBO comes knocking.

I went through this dilemma this summer. My Bravo has 2100 hours on it and was running perfectly. Changed oil every 25 hours. Filters cut - no metal. Maybe a little extra oil consumption but not alarming. But something was bothering me. Since I am part 91 (non commercial) my options of extending it were mine. But really were they? I fly my wife and passengers frequently. Do I tell them that I am exceeding the factory's recommended replacement time? Do I tell them that I have to do added things to the engine to be sure its really OK to fly? Is this really fair to them. I kept asking these questions over and over. Finally during Oshkosh, I went to the Lycoming tent and talked to Dennis Coulborn from Williamsport who was very helpful. He told me that he can give me a rebuilt factory engine with new log book for the price of an overhaul if the engine was first run, and has never been overhauled before. So the next week I sealed the deal and bought the rebuilt engine from Air Power in Texas. Best prices, and highly recommended. To make a long story short, I am receiving my engine in freight tomorrow at Panama City Beach airport where Mitchell Hall from Sunset Aviation will be swapping the engines. Sent the props for resealing but not overhauling since I don't want the prop shop to file a lot of metal from the blades, All new oil lines, refurb and spruce up the engine compartment. All new accessories are standard with the Factory rebuilt engines including turbo, controllers, etc. So far happy with my decision.

20,000 feet a month ago in my Rocket

The price for overhaul you quoted by Zephyr seems low. Need to check on non serviceable crankshaft, crankcase, are they replacing camshaft. And what about cylinders. Too many variables to speculate on cost. I just had my Rocket TSIO-520-NB overhauled by Victor which was considerably higher with accessories. Books can be written about how to and how not to overhaul an engine. On my Bravo I gave up on speculations and unknowns and went directly to Lycoming for my TIO-520-AF1B. As far as going to TBO on the Rocket, I would like to know the best way to run the engine to maximize endurance (power setting, rich lean, etc). One thing for certain make absolutely sure the fuel flow set up is perfect on this powerful engine.