Becca

We should post parking information and maybe do some sort of plane to plane beer potluck

I am also super interested in this Casey event (if not this year, then next year when border opens). Please send me details! May be me alone, poor Byron isn’t into camping generally and especially without facilities

We will miss you! I have my fingers crossed for a border reopening on July 21 but I am skeptical it will happen. With us being vaccinated, i am not as worried about risk as I was last year at this time and I miss spending time at my lake!

Major thread creep... I wouldn't be opposed for insurance discounts for some of those things - particular equipment like ADSB-in, in flight weather, and electric attitude systems are real proven safety features that counter known causes of accidents - like car insurance where you get discounts for ABS system (at least back in the old days when they weren't as common.) It acts as incentives for you to expend money to improve the safety of flight. Insurance rates have gotten absurdly high, a few discounts for people that do things to reduce risk (or spend more time training and proving proficiency, etc.), seems like it would be warranted ..

i am flying the Airventure Cup which is an official event as part of Oshkosh. It’s an air race - but In terms of flying it’s simply a timed cross country flight flown under the FARs which should be fully covered under my regular insurance. And yet EAA (who surely has insurance) has asked us to get the waiver of subrogation with them named to participate. And for the first time ever that cost us $250 - as it has many other pilots participating. Does this mean I should not participate under your reasoning?

I agree. At some point it would be cheaper to provide event insurance than 100 pilots paying $250 surcharges. And probably actually safer for the event because they can get the precise coverage they need.

So this happened to us when we signed up for the Air Venture Cup also -- they charged us $250 to add EAA (since its an EAA sponsored event, they require being added to participate)). It a 1 day event flown as a cross country flight under the FARs. Like you, this amounts to basically 10% of our premium for a 1 day event. We have never been charged this before when we've had to name an event organizer on the insurance (or either EAA or MSF). Our agent said this seems to be a new thing this year and about half the policies are requiring it now when they have to add an event/program/organization. The AVC organizers said they are getting a lot of complaints about it this year for the first year ever from a lot of participants, some people were just able to change underwriters to one who didn't require it and avoid the fee but we didn't have that option but they agreed they were hearing a lot of reports of it for the first time ever. Not to poke my finger in the eye of anyone around here (well maybe a little), but if I am paying this I sure as heck hope that participants in the caravans are...

this post ^^ but that’s just non-formation situational awareness. Presumably in formation, and arriving at Oshkosh, there would be significantly above normal priority placed on spacial awareness. The aircraft that was hit in the tail would not have been able to see it happen; but the aircraft which was struck in the wing, was struck by an aircraft that was in front of him and would have been visible (not to mention that type of wing damage had to have yawed/rattled the plane on impact). I am really surprised the NTSB did not either challenge this narrative or comment on why it would be credible to claim that the pilots did not realize this happened in flight. You can go to the NTSB docket to read both pilot statements (I don’t believe either pilot has chosen to comment here on MS but if they did please someone direct me, I am curious as to a first person POV, though I would assume they are both so lawyered up they probably are keeping quiet.) One thing I observed in the incident report from the Caravan was a doubling down on consistent procedures and training, which I think is good. As someone who’s done spacecraft accident and anomaly investigations one thing that I noticed was lacking in the Caravan report is there was no list or analysis of root causes or contributing causes. There’s often cultural issues that need to be addressed in leadership and instruction, and hopefully there’s awareness there too. I would be curious if the Caravan brought in any outside people to do an independent review and recommendations, and if those were incorporated, or if they kept it all “in house”? I am only left to speculate and infer as to what those contributing causes were by the types of procedure changes that were made presumably in response to them. I think it’s an open secret that the factory pilot had not attended a Caravan clinic (a fact that i did not notice in either report - does anyone know if this is just an untrue rumor?). But a lot of changes appear to be made to address “regional” differences in training, is it possible the other pilot’s regionally provided training was somehow lacking or divergent in some way? I don’t know. Likewise there seems to be emphasis on changes for right seat training for the passenger/copilot/spouse/child attending. Was there a distraction in the cockpit involved? Could something have been averted with a more prepared right seater? Again I don’t know, I am again only inferring from the procedure changes. Lastly I didn’t realize until all these reports issued that there was a chase/photo plane trailing them. I suppose it’s cameras weren’t on? Why didn’t it observe this event? (Also yikes if a trailing photo pilot didn’t observe a midair, why not?) Maybe in the future the photo aircraft should have go-pros running at all times just for the purposes of post flight lesson learned and critiques (you never know, they may observe a close call.). Are there any statements from that photo pilot? Curious to hear that. Are either of the two accident pilots going to be permitted to fly in the Caravan again, are they getting any sort of remedial training or qualifications above and beyond just attending the usual formation training? There’s lots of questions that all of these reports just do not answer for me. I look forward to attending the briefing at Oshkosh. I hope the Mooney caravan has reached out to all the other caravans with its lessons learned! I think the caravans are a cool thing, I want them to succeed.. safely! Edit: I now realize N9201A was the accident airplane so I assume the MS poster with that tail number is the pilot? Maybe he can answer some of these questions directly instead of leaving us to speculate.

In 200 years, science has allowed us to double the average human lifespan. So in answer, humans did not survive very long without modern medicine. The germ theory of disease wasn’t even really understood until late 1800s. Antibiotics, modern maternal care, vaccines, etc all makes us live longer. As do, these days, masks.

Looks like an amazing weekend there. Anyone ever take a Mooney in? I want to hear about it! Its 2600' long and alllllllll ice. https://www.facebook.com/AltonBaySeaplaneBaseandIceRunway/ https://www.nh.gov/dot/org/aerorailtransit/aeronautics/sasp/airports/alton-bay.htm

It appears you have more time to read MS than read mask mandates. Virginia, for instance, has significant guidance on what type of mask to wear and how to wear it -- linking back to the CDC guidance to the same --- on their mandate page page, but somehow I doubt you care but clearly the mask you posted would not be compliant: https://www.vdh.virginia.gov/coronavirus/cloth-face-covers/#mask-tips

Here's my two cents: 1. I choose to take my medical advice by people who have medical expertise. So far, every medical expert with meaningful credentials and knowledge of this pandemic has said masks work. For me, its not political, its that some people think the earth is round and some people think the earth is flat, and I just don't make counter-science decisions because someone tells me I have to do it to take some sort of political stand. Wearing a red MAGA hat is political. Spreading a deadly virus contrary to science is not a political expression, its just stupidity. 2. Back to aviation, this whole thread is sad to me. I read today that masks will be optional at Oshkosh absent any prevailing government order to the contrary, and you know, Wisconsin. So this convinces me that unless there's a real change in attitudes, or the virus rates decline dramatically, we will be unlikely to go because I do not choose to risk my health and that of my family and colleagues and husbands' colleagues because its clear from this thread that some people attending will refuse to take reasonable precautions. Oshkosh is something we look forward to every year and we were sad to miss it this year, and I had been hopeful since its a mostly outdoor event and capacity could be managed or limited, it could be done safely, but this thread is making me doubtful that the pilot community is ready to take the necessary steps to get us there. 3. For the person who said he's aircrew and doesn't wear his mask in the cockpit, please ask your FO or Captain - honestly - how he or she feels about your choice. My husband is also aircrew and I would prefer him protected (and protecting me) from exposures in the cockpit especially on a short trip (such as one or two leg, I get on a longer trip exposure might be inevitable), we have lots of older relatives that we come into contact with and just because you think this isn't important to you doesn't mean it isn't important to us. Even if you don't believe it helps, consider it a courtesy or a kindness. 3. Someone said they only know people who took precautions got covid. A story for you. I recently went on a "club" ski trip. My "pod" tried to be very careful, we wore masks, did not go to any indoor dining or indoor bars, we avoided riding lifts with those outside our pod, we had comfortable distanced outdoor socialization and apres ski with others, and enjoyed an overall great ski trip (we also visited Yellowstone, snowshoes, and snow mobile). Our pod tested for covid before and after the trip (negative). We wore our masks on the airlines and in the terminal going to and from and dutifully masked up anytime we went indoors or were in close proximity with others outdoors. All this said, we knew taking this trip posed some risk, but we thought we could do what we pilots do every day - make science and evidence-based decisions to minimize this risk to ourselves and each other. Many of the other participants on the trip did not follow these precautions - they socialized in each others condos, went to big group indoor dining events, did not get tested, wore masks for the shortest duration required and under duress of the local ski mountain rules. There were several times where the group tried to convince our pod to be less careful and that we should join them in some of their risky activities because covid was no big deal. ... in any event, the outcome was there was a massive covid outbreak amongst the other people who attended the trip -- somewhere near 25% -- of course none of them got tested in the days after attending trip like we had, so in addition to them getting covid, there were reports of several spouses (that did not come on the trip) who also got covid, and I suspect some of the people they work with probably got it too. So far there haven't been any deaths (one hospitalization), and I hope it stays that way.

A few months ago (before I was kicked off the Mooney Pilots Facebook group for having an opinion on a Mooney-related topic), the new folks at MAPA said they were hard at work building important critical things useful to Mooney pilots. They said their highest priority was to create an Internet forum where Mooney issues could be discussed to replace the email list. I said “hey you know there’s already a super active Internet forum called mooneyspace wouldn’t it make more sense for MAPA to get involved in that instead of spending limited resources creating a new and duplicative forum.” The silence was deafening. Anyway did not exactly make me want to send them money.

It wasn’t additional insurance, you just called your existing insurance company and asked them to name EAA - which they did for free, I think ARC was the only time we’ve had this happen (though we also had to do it to take flight instruction at the MAPA safety clinic fwiw). SARL and Airventure Classic races are flown under the FARs (eg you maybe be “air racing” in name, but you are operating your plane in a way you are legally allowed to operate it any day of the week), so unless your insurance has a specific exclusion you should be covered when you air race. What would additional insurance cover for the air race that your regular insurance wouldn’t? But you can always ask your agent to confirm.

This post has a lot more information in it that was previously released. Good start as well as the willingness to share the results of the i investigation! I understand waiting until the NTSB, but presumably if the NTSB report takes too long the leaders will have to make a decision on those safety improvements before the next caravan. As to the text .. It says that the wingman over ran the lead aircraft, and the lead aircraft had correct course during that time exacerbating the situation. It says the two airplanes did execute some sort of avoidance maneuver. What’s the standard caravan avoidance maneuver if one loses site of the other in a situation like this? Seems like those procedures would be fully in place already - but if not, room for immediate improvement. If procedures exist, were they followed or why not? If followed, why was there still contact? Is this situation trained/briefed? If so, did both pilots actually have that training/briefing? All questions I look forward to learning about. Is there air to air comm so wing pilot can notify lead he’s fallen out of formation or lost site? this line is interesting: “After landing it was noted that contact had occurred.” Surely the two pilots knew contact occurred before landing?

Yeah I suppose you’re right. In the perfect world you can do both, which is the appeal of the caravan. But when things get complicated, in those circumstances some people are going to the Caravan, some people are going to Oshkosh. Me, I’m choosing Oshkosh. I like hanging with Mooney people, but I like hanging with pilots in general too and had a great time at my N40 campsite with other pilots, pilot friends in all aircraft types from a Houston and Dc, so I don’t think I missed an opportunity to meet and hang out with other airplane people on Saturday and Sunday by being at Oshkosh rather than Madison - after all I was at a campsite surrounded by hundreds of other planes and airplane people, drinking beer, drinking coffee, rating landings, and hangar flying. Then we got to come hang with our Mooney friends for the pizza social, so the best of all worlds. I’m sure the Japanese steakhouse was indeed fun ... but I can do that with friends in DC. I can only do Oshkosh at Oshkosh. But I think some people would do the caravan even if there was no Oshkosh (every year we always see a handful of various mass arrivals people leave on Monday morning before the show even starts... so to each their own). And I’m sure that’s fun too. But that’s not why I’m flying across the country to the middle of nowhere in Wisconsin, but for some people the Caravan is the reason, and the show is just the icing on top. As I’ve said repeatedly, it seems like a fun way to arrive and a fun thing to do if you have the time and inclination for it.

All I hear from this story is to give the EAA an earful about what I think about them allowing a caravan to spend days lobbying for a preferred camp site while they were actually turning other airplanes away. It’s one thing to make space among a field of other GA arrivals but here, the way you describe it, the EAA selected one GA arrival over the other and I am not sure I’m ok with that. The EAA published GA arrival policy is first come first serve and park with the people you arrive with. I think you are lucky the spot was dry on Sunday at all and that you had no competition lobbying for it. Sounds like we Fisk arrivals need our own advocate on the ground. I understand planning the caravan is a lot of work. Good on you. Not trying to disparage it. But Apparently any time a non-caravaner says something about the caravan like “you guys had fortuitous arrival timing this year” and “because of that timing the caravan was a great way to arrive at Oshkosh this year because they got in when others didn’t”... honestly I expected “aww shucks yes the caravan is awesome.” But apparently even that only permits a response of circling the wagons and defend the perfection of the caravan so I suppose I should just give up discussing. I mean seriously you had a freakin midair this year and I’m on these forums saying “I still think doing the caravan seems fun if I had the time, I dont think it’s inherently unsafe.” Out of respect for caravan leadership eventually being fully transparent once the process plays out, I am not posting the rumors I’ve heard about what caused the midair but let’s say it doesn’t paint a flattering picture, but I’m leaving it be because I think it’s a good event that we should encourage as Mooney owners. Yet all I get is drama every time I make a comment about the caravan - even something I intended to be positive like that it seemed like the caravan was particularly well timed this year and offered an advantage over Fisk only resulted in criticism. In the end, this whole post really turns me off the caravan as a way to arrive. I got up, preflighted my plane, topped off the fuel, looked at the weather, reviewed the NOTAM, selected a weather window, followed a published notam spaced about a mile from 2 other airplanes, landed, set up my tent, met my airplane neighbors, went and got beer and pizza... and meanwhile the caravan spent the next 36 hrs in Madison lobbying for parking, coordinating, phoning, weather checking, arranging an extra night in a motel, multiple pre briefs, having people on the ground moving the big tent, before finally managing to arrive mostly but not completely safely ... your description makes it sound like even more of an ordeal than I had previously envisioned. And really the way you describe it makes the caravans timing sound horribly unlucky but only just barely rescued by lots of work. I’m not sure I’m patient enough for all of that when I could control my own arrival time.

sorry you’re right I’m an idiot about the timing and not ashamed to admit it. I was trying to refresh my memory of when the weather windows were via my text message history from my iPhone which is clearly as flawed as my memory. You were originally scheduled to arrive Saturday but didn’t make it until Sunday right? It was Saturday morning (when we arrived) that we thought the weather would hold out until closer to 1 but it came rolling it at 1130 so you put off to the next day, I’m not sure why I had it my head that you had been able to come that afternoon.... What I very much recall was that the caravan for very lucky getting the only dry arrival slot, when all the other caravans couldn’t/didn’t/canceled and the field was not open to Fisk arrivals for GAC. That’s not advance planning or some superior technical skills of the Mooney caravan over all the other caravans (besides the Cherokees who came earlier) or the Fisk arrivals. It’s a lucky combination of timing and accomodation in the one dry spot on N40. My memory on timing is very clearly off but my opinion that it was fortuitous still stands. For instance, what if the Bos hasn’t ultimately canceled - are sure you sure the EAA would have selected the Mooney’s over the Bos for that one dry spot? (It seems to me the Bos tent is always just a little more favorably positioned in the N40 than the Mooney’s, I think they do have some - unfair - clout in that regard). I mean I think it’s lucky that the EAA accommodated the Mooney’s over General Fisk arrivals for that spot y’all ended up parked in. It was a good year to be in the caravan because it all worked out to get you in when lots of others couldn’t, I am not sure why it upsets you so that I think that’s luck or fortuitous? It worked out, yay caravan...!

Sorry I went back and looked at my message history with friends and got the Mooney arrival time wrong, it was originally 1130. i stand by the rest of my recollection - eg that Bos canceled their 130 pm arrival on Friday night, first to reschedule to later Saturday evening and then they canceled it all together first thing Saturday morning. (you can confirm that on BT, those times are all over their web site) making it available for the Mooney’s, that there was one high and dry spot after the late morning storms that EAA gave you instead of regular Fisk arrivals or Cessnas or whatnot - heck if the Bos hasn’t rescheduled they may have gotten that spot instead of the Mooney’s - and yes the storms weren’t forecast until 130 pm, which is probably what drove the Bo reschedule, and then that Saturday morning they set up sooner than forecast (Byron was actually texting some caravan people at 10 am telling them that by delaying they were missing their weather window ... in retrospect an incorrect forecast given my photo of the storm reaching the field at exactly 1130.). I consider all those a fortuitous set of circumstance that allowed the Mooney’s to get in on a Saturday when no one else got in after the 1130 am storm (cheers to Seth, who arrived in his Mooney at precisely 1126 and was like the 3rd to last plane parked in GAC). Could it have been more fortuitous? Sure, you could have had the Cherokee’s 10 am slot :). I am surprised actually that no one broke ranks with the caravan and just left early to ensure they would get in on Saturday morning before the field closed - I would have been tempted. We also got in on Saturday in a fortuitous set of circumstances ourselves (eg the opportunity for me to get off work earlier than planned on Friday so we could stage an hour away from Osh and then fly the rest of the way first thing Saturday morning before the weather came in, if that hadn’t happened we would have been waiting for the field to reopen for camping sunday or Monday too). What’s wrong with crediting a little bit of luck in all the timing? All things considered it worked out pretty well for the Mooney’s. You can’t negotiate with the weather, you can only negotiate around the weather..

So the storms were originally not scheduled to get there until 1 pm so it looked like the caravan had the ideal slot at 10 am. And then when the storms came in sooner, the caravan got really lucky Bos canceled their previously planned 1 pm arrival because of the forecast storm arrival, making it available to the caravan, and also that the field gave them the one high and dry spot to park while keeping field closed to everyone else. I don’t think you could’ve gotten any more lucky considering the conditions that day (except if you could have accelerated and gotten there at 8 am before the storms of course...). It was definitely a blessed year IMHO for your arrival plans...

Fwiw - the airport was open on Saturday morning before the late morning storms rolled in. That’s when we arrived, 7 am - had about 4 hrs of good weather to set up and then watch the storm from a restaurant. Parked in Row 520 so really close to the show. Many Bos and Cirri would have been able to get in if they looked at the weather and realized that their formation arrival schedule would be in the middle of a storm and just come in on their own time earlier in the morning rather than waiting for their “slot”. Instead they spent another night at a motel instead of at osh, the downside of formations. Mooney caravan though was basically miraculously timed for arrival this year! I was really happy for the caravaners for that timing it was basically perfect. that said, I don’t think any midair’s occurred among the thousands of airplanes that arrived via Fisk, one midair occurred out of 62 planes on the caravan. I don’t think that is conclusive evidence that a mass arrival inherently less safe. But that’s not the point of this thread - more that Fisk is safe. That said... I have been a little concerned, as I mentioned in the other thread, about the caravan safety culture given the currrent response, but I’m holding judgment until I see how this is handled in the training and procedure updates and transparency about what happened...

I feel like I owe a "what we did" post here. We ended up going to the Homestead in Michigan, right next to Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore. https://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotel_Review-g42241-d90041-Reviews-The_Homestead-Glen_Arbor_Leelanau_County_Michigan.html The area: Glen Arbor is a great little town with little art shops, touristy restaurant cafes, and lots of tubing and kayaking outfitters. The drive around the peninsula from Traverse City to Glen Arbor is littered with wineries. Sleeping Bear Dunes is beautiful with a scenic drive and lots of hiking and also swimming holes. We only sampled a tiny bit of all of this, but felt like we could go back. If you like cherries, there is cherries in everything here. I left feeling like I could come back for a week (as an outdoor enthusiast) and fish, hike, kayak, tube, and swim new places every day. The goal of this trip was of course to find someplace more resort-y because we had been camping for 6 days at Oshkosh and would want, you know, the indoors. But a trip with a tent out to the Manitou islands is now something I really want to do! The hotel: One guest that goes every year described it as "never perfect, always fine." And that was a good description, there were several hotel areas and several condo rentals. Two pools. And a little lakefront area with a beach. The pools were pretty overwhelmingly full of children, but the lake front was lovely and the swimming was a perfect respite after the hot days at Oshkosh. They also rented tubes (though you could bring your own) and you could float down their little river to the lake. My biggest complaint is the room price was a little steep for what you got. The nice thing is they didn't make it worse with junk fees like resort parking and resort fees, the price was the price. Both the hot tub at the pool area and the whirlpool Jacuzzi in our room were perfect after 6 days at OSH. The restaurants were only ok, but they were convenient, and the beach bar had a gorgeous view of the sunset over the lake. Other advantage for pilots is their cancelation policy - you can cancel any time, even day of arrival. If you cancel close into your trip though, you don't get refunded but the money can be applied to a visit any time the following two years, so if you don't make it one Oshkosh you can always go the next year. TVR Airport: We flew into Traverse City, there are a couple closer airports but they are run down, but more importantly they didn't have rental cars. Though the FBO at Traverse City will arrange you a rental car, there's was priced $200 for 2 days. We got our rental car from a company at the commercial terminal for $60 for 2 days. The downside of that is we had to shuttle back and forth to the commercial terminal, whcih is a 15 min drive around the airport, to pick it up and drop us off borrowing a courtesy car to make the trip, which was a little annoying. Next time: I could easily see myself going back to this area. Also, though, Door County and Makinac Island are really tempting. Ultimately we did not plan ahead far enough to get rooms over the weekend in these places pre-booked, and all that was left was a small number of $700-1000/night rooms. Looking ahead to next year it might be great to actually book one of these places ahead of time. Also, with Door County, I think finding a place to rent a boat would be ideal and actually spend a day out on the lake. Another place that no one mentioned that I would try is the Apostle Islands, truly beautiful from the photos.

This post concerns me... It’s ok to be confident that what you are doing can be done safely (and it can - I have no issue with either formation flying or the coolness of the caravan as an event... being concerned with safety for an event is NOT the same as being so risk adverse as saying you shouldn’t do it.. well except for the people that are afraid of Fisk, apparently..). However though I am not concerned with the overall safety of caravans or formation flying, the more posts I read the more I am concerned about whether the Mooney Caravan is responding to this Incident adequately and improving rather than digging in their heels. I am sympathetic - the 130 posts here do feel like an attack on the caravan and it’s probably easy to try to get a little defensive. But don’t let defensive stand in the way of acknowledging what happened... The Caravan just had a near miss of a fatal event. If the rumors are to believed - there are several procedural, pilot qualification, and training issues that do need to be fixed. You keep repeating concerns about insurance - which says to me it’s possible that something happened that might have either deviated from what’s covered by the caravans insurance or an individuals owners’ insurance coverages. I have been avoiding posting these rumors here out of consideration for all the legalease, but this is not some freak-event, things went wrong and everyone is really lucky no one got hurt. I’ve worked on accidents before, and I’ve worked with “not concerned” managers, and things don’t turn out well in that sort of safety culture. Google “normalization of deviance”, for one. “not concerned” is a sign of an indifferent safety culture. Until root cause is found and corrective measures are taken you should be concerned. I am not saying cancel the event, stop caravans, or abandon formation flying. But even professional aviators in the military have a safety stand down after a near miss - they don’t just go on with “not concerned” and keep doing what they are doing. Same thing in the spaceflight business. A bunch of amateurs trying to prove the professionalism of the operation should not be ignoring what the professionals do. Be concerned, a professional aviation operation would be.

If that hypothetical is what happened - That is absolutely both a training and procedure issue that should be addressed before next caravan. You train people how to handle all positions even if not the one original assigned, in case a person gets a last minute “promotion” to lead, and you incorporate procedures for instances in which a position shift is necessary (whatever that means, an such as additional pre-brief discussing a pre planned list of X items). Agreed that all mistakes can’t be avoided but that a mistake happened doesn’t mean you can’t look behind the curtain to help avoid that or similar mistakes in the future.

Can you answer this - is the Mooney caravan “grounded” until someone completes some preliminary investigation and appropriate lessons learned or corrective actions are incorporated into both training and procedures? Will you be able to make those changes before training for next years caravan starts in the winter?