jgarrison

We try to price them right. Not having an emotional attachment to the plane, I believe, allows for a more objective approach to selling. There is an some art to it also. And there are some motivation issues that come into play. You have 'sell in one week' prices and 'sell in three months or more' prices (i.e. full boat retail). And there are sometimes prices between the two. Sometimes we get lucky. We just contracted the 7th or 8th plane this year that never hit the advertising cycle. So there are times when our planes don't contribute to the knowledge base.

I did get an email asking for an appraisal. Haven't heard back yet. One step at a time on the app... Working on history, methods and data now. Just getting started though. Once done, I will think about delivery.

Thanks for the feedback Robert... Unfortunately, I think the GX Ovation will be right at the end. More than likely, I will start at the bottom and work my way up.

Thank you for all the input you gave me on my dilemma on curing the inadequacies of the value guides. I think this is what I am going to do. Please let me know if you think I am on the right path. I am going to use my old MAPA format but instead of talking about a certain topic each month, I will just give some general information about buying, selling and pricing/appraising Mooneys. I will separate the data by model (pre-201, M20J, M20K, etc...). I am going to give it away in a PDF format. The only requirement I will have of the donee is that I get his or her name, valid email address and phone number and a little note about what they expect to do with the data (use for buying, use for selling, use for insurance, use for just 'hey, I like stuff like this'). If the data is being used to purchase or sell a plane, I will ask the user of the guide to provide me with actual sales data after the sale is completed so that I may keep a confidential record of sales that happen outside of my business. I will ask the user to donate to me voluntarily if the user finds the data useful. If the user doesn't want to donate, no harm, no foul, but if the guide helps them make a wise $50,000 or $100,000 or $200,000 decision, perhaps they can make a small contribution to me for the time and effort put in to produce and keep the data current. I will, of course, identify myself in the guide and explain what my services are with respect to buying and brokering Mooneys. This plan will not likely fix Bluebook or VREF and it will not likely have a real fix to the appraisal points used by lenders (who are shackled to BB and VREF). However, having the data available and a reasoned approach to how to add properly give credit for equipment in a plane may eventually have an affect on both lenders and existing value guides. Does this sound like the proper strategy? Does anyone else have any ideas or want to add to this plan? Thanks again for all the input to date. It has been a good learning experience for me. Jimmy

The P/W PT-6 I fly allows up to 10 hours of flight with Avgas. Temps run hotter so you have to keep an eye on that.

The bottles arrived today. Ready to ship.

Hi John... Question: Where did your professional appraiser get his data? I am still thinking about where to go with this. Will make a decision soon.

Quoting the whole thing because it is very well written and thought out. I appreciate the word 'objectively' that you used. Problem in this endeavor is that in aircraft valuations, not only are there subjective additions/subtractions to value (which is why you will never see me use the 1-10 scale on paint and interior - I look at a plane and decide 'will the buyer like what he sees on first impression or will it turn him off') but there are levels of objectivity (FIKI TKS to one person may be minimal in value to me <Texas resident> but may be worth more than the typical addition another <Chicago resident>). However, there are basics that everyone SHOULD be able to agree on, within degrees. And that is what I am after. When you have a non-pilot underwriter who is trying to put value on an item that is not specifically listed in the guide, you run into problems. And that is where this thread originated from. $10K worth of true value that the appraiser gave $3K toward appraisal.

Lenders advertise 15% down and I believe this guy was going with the 15. The 85% loan is based on the lower of sales price or appraisal. I think in order, strength of borrower comes in first and the collateral comes second. Some banks are ferocious on loan to value and even though they may say they will loan with only 10-15% down, the reality is that their underwriting will mean that they are not going to do many full retail deals because they wont give full value to the aircraft through appraisal.

Creative... I like it. I may need to pick your brain if I get a little further on this.

There needs to be a good source of determining collateral value. I don't think anyone should jump into it without a good basis from which to protect themselves. However, If there were some private money out there that wanted a nice steady income OR if there were a lender out there who actually knows a thing or two about what makes value in a plane, there certainly are some opportunities. I am even thinking about putting a program together with a lender, private or otherwise, where I will guarantee some buyback based on a some formula, should the plane be repossessed for some reason. If you know of someone that wants to discuss, I am open. I have a few calls out now.

That's part of it, yes. The second part is psychological. Guy (or girl) wants a plane. He has done his research. He has selected the plan he wants and negotiates the purchase, with a fair amount of research of the market (remember we are talking smart people if they are shopping for Mooneys). The buyer submits the aircraft to his lender for approval. The lender, a 'professional' tells him it is worth less than he bargained for. So he walks away. It doesn't happen often. But often enough. Worst case I have ever experienced is one where an M20C had a prop strike 15 years before. Lender put something like negative $15,000 on the plane for damage history. The buyer called me and was MAD that I was selling him a plane that was worth way less than we had bargained for because the lender told him I overpriced the plane. I blew my top. Called the underwriter. She was firm in her conviction that a prop strike was damage history and that it was significant, regardless of a new prop on the plane and a teardown inspection years before. I called the president of the bank. He said he would go with whatever the underwriter said. Never again with them.

I just bought several 115cf Oxygen bottles for my own use, but bought extras. They will arrive at my place in a few days. These are the large bottles used on the Bravos/Ovations/Eagles/Acclaims and some older planes (like the M20K-252). The composite bottle installed in your plane has a 15 year service life, so planes from the late 80's and early 90's are coming up on the second round. Planes from 2002-2003 are coming up on their first change. Price is $1,500 plus shipping (plus sales taxes if shipped to TX). Email me if you would like one. jimmy @ allamericanaircraft.com

Yessir... There's a lot of smart in a Mooney owner.

Yep. And Mooney guys do a fair amount of research. Just for grins, I spoke with a dealer a while back who deals in a lot of different models of planes and occasionally a Mooney. He asked one day 'How do you sell Mooneys? These Mooney buyers want me to tell them about something that happened to the airplane in 1972, like I was there. F**k Mooney buyers'! Cessna buyers don't to that. Piper buyers don't do that. I don't care if I never get another Mooney in inventory!!!' I just laughed.

Fair enough... You use ebay, lender's use VREF and BlueBook, I will use my 750 Mooney sales history and reference thousands and thousands of conversations with buyers. In the end, each of us make the best decision using the info available to us. Edit.... I also watch the market VERY closely so I know what planes are on the market and how they are equipped and what they are asking. And I do try to get sales prices on planes when I can, by either talking to the buyer or the seller. Sometimes they will tell me, sometimes they won't.

You are probably pretty close to accurate on the comparison of classic cars. It is a bit of an art. In my opinion, value is all based on relativity. What is an M20K worth when compared to a Turbo Arrow. Or what is an M20C worth when compared to an older Cherokee 180 or Cessna 172. And what is a K worth in relation to a J or an M model. And what is an Acclaim worth when compared to a new Mooney. And what is an M20C with 430W/ADS-B/STEC-50 worth compared to the same M20C without. The only thing we can compare the rarity or scarcity to is a new plane and the other options available in other models. The vintage Mooney is not really influenced by what Mooney is doing. It is however influenced by what is happening in the economy. It then end, a guy that wants the efficiency and speed will value a Mooney higher than some of the other options available to him. The model, the year, the condition, the history, the upgrades and the avionics will slot a plane into a price range relative to everything else. That takes time, study of the market and if you have it available to you a person with knowledge of the market and relative values.

That is true... Except if you believe VREF and you put a Lopresti Cowling on your plane. They give you $26,000+ for value on a pre-201 if it has the cowling.

If a plane is on controller for 12 months, it is overpriced. The seller could use an education in value. Question for you: I have sold eight planes this year without advertising. A few before I ever got them but all eight within a few days of me alerting known buyers by email that the plane was arriving. So based on no advertising and selling so quickly, did they sell for below value? Should I have priced them up, put them on the market and waited it out? Or is it that they were good planes in a good segment of the market that were priced properly for value and the buyers were educated by being on the market for a while and missing good plane after good plane because others were getting there first when advertised? And a couple of other questions regarding your final comment... Your value guide issue is aimed at a guide producer who does not have actual sales data to draw from, correct? Like BlueBook and VREF, who don't and never have sold a plane right? So does 750 Mooney sales not qualify as having an actual knowledge of the market? How many sales would you think it would take for me to have quality data?

Most of the planes on ebay have significant issues. That's why they are on ebay and not on traditional aircraft sales venues. Not gonna convince him though.

I don't know by what metric we can measure this, but I can tell you that I would bet we sell more Mooneys from top end to bottom end than anyone else. Last I checked, the other big names were fairly limited in their choice of inventory. When Shery called it quits, the vintage Mooney market lost one of its biggest cheerleaders. We continue to sell the older stuff even though it is harder to sell and the return is less than selling the newer stuff.

Bingo. You want to sell for wholesale or below, ebay is the way to go. You cannot gauge value by watching any aircraft on ebay. Thanks, Lance Responding to the previous poster... My position is not necessarily to produce a guide. My position is that there are two guides widely referenced now that don't know a flip about the actual market. And my potential solution is to produce a guide that, at a minimum, will apply value where value exists. Same thing goes for value detractors. There are quite a few of those. So if there is going to be a guide, should we use a guide that is flawed and produced by someone who has never sold an aircraft in their life or one that is produced by someone who actually talks to many hundreds of real buyers every year? My position is that there is a better way. When I wrote the MAPA piece, I believe I did a fairly good job of explaining how to value a plane. I know there is one internet valuator out there now that is basically an offshoot, or more accurately, it uses a template that resembles the work I did back then. I think the members here who read my work back then will attest that my values were pretty close and I have been referenced here many times regarding value. So yes, there is a formula that can be used if that person or entity actually has first hand knowledge of what he or it knows something about the actual market. And absolutely, there are circumstances that don't hold up to the formula. If a man or woman wants to sell for below market because of a situation, then more power to the buyer who gets a deal. But that outlier does not change the true value of the aircraft. I just means that a fair transaction was done at below market value and someone got a deal.

Name and phone number please?

Correct. I presented him with correct VREF and BB valuations. He basically told me I didn't know what I was talking about. Hooray!!!! First answer is right on the button. Lender told me point blank that a 430W was worth $2,400. He told me no-one wanted them any more. He told me that the 650 was the radio people wanted. He told me you couldn't even sell a 430W on the used market. Neither BB or VREF provide values on a 430W. It is up to the appraiser to determine value on that unit. On the Autopilot, agreed. Times are about to change there. Here are the additions in VREF and BB for the referenced autopilots: VREF - STEC-30: $10,900 VERF - STEC-50: $4,000 BB - 'Two Axis AP': $400 (yes, there is no comma in that number)

Actually, you have supported my position with the description as unique. Yes, every plane is unique. That is why when you take an M20C and try to impute value into it in the same way that you put value into a Cessna 172, you get wrong value info. When I wrote the MAPA column, I did get a lot of calls from people. Mostly sellers. Asking me about things on their plane that they didn't see in my column. And granted, I can't mention every small detail in anything I produce. But there are standards in the Mooney line that are different from every other make of aircraft. A guide will not substitute for a prebuy or logbook research. I have every plane's logs scanned and complete and in very presentable order (you can't imagine how haphazard logs scans are by some people) and I recommend every buyer get a prebuy. Those are two things that affirm the uniqueness of the plane. But on the value side for installed equipment, you can't substitute for a comprehensive guide that takes buyers desires into account.