glafaille

Continued- Logbook entry. I called the installer who is a Avionics shop/Repair Station and asked about the logbook entry and lack of any supporting 337. By the way the STC mentioned in the entry concerns the installation of a Garmin GNC155 GPS into Piper aircraft. The installer told me that as long as a CDI for the GPS and an annunciator panel was installed, no 337 or STC was required and I was good to go for IFR. I then called the FAA and was told that the STC might be all that is required IF it was issued for that particular make and model of GPS installed in the make and model of my aircraft. Any deviations from the STC require additional supporting documents (337) and proving flights. As well as the annunciator panel, CDI, and a FAA approved flight manual supplement for the particular installation of GPS and aircraft. Bottom line? The GPS is not legal for IFR flight. Solution? Use it for VFR only OR pay an avionics shop to certify it, which is not reasonable given that the shop will have to verify the entire installation including wires, connectors and antenna used, and then prepare a 337 and a flight manual supplement, submit everything to the FAA, and then perform the test flight. Probably be cheaper to just get a new one! Confusing stuff for sure!

Here is a good example: I just found an airplane I am getting serious about, it has a Garmin GNC300XL Comm/GPS which is legal for IFR enroute and non-precision approaches. Logbook entry below, no 337 or STC in aircraft records. Is it legal for IFR?

Greetings Mooneyspacers! I've been looking for a C model Mooney for about 5 months now and have inspected the records of well over a dozen aircraft. Most of the candidates fail the records check for various glaring problems. One of the common records problems is a GPS installed iin the panel that the owner THINKS is IFR legal but in fact it is not. One gent even told me that any GPS installled in the panel was IFR legal. A GPS that has the capability to be IFR legal can be installed such that it is legal for IFR flight or VFR only flight. It is usually much cheaper to install to VFR standards than IFR standards, often VFR standards are specified as a way to save money. More time is required and more expensive cabling and connectors are used for IFR installations. Then there is the FAA paperwork and a test flight. If you have a question you should contact your nearest radio shop and make an appointment to have them check your records to be sure. However, here is what I look for: 1. GPS annunciator panel - a seperate panel mounted with GPS specific annunciators. 2. Read the logbook entry - it should make a reference to an IFR installation, usually a test flight is required and should also be noted. 3. Read the 337 and see if anything is mentioned concerning IFR legal flight 4. I have seen mention in the logs of an STC but the STC listed does not apply to the make and model of the GPS or aircraft. Look up the STC on the FAA wesite and read for yourself if one is mentioned. 5. Do you have the flight manual supplement in your POH? Also I believe the manual for the GPS is required to be carried onboard the aircraft, NOT stored with all the other paperwork junk at home. If your aircraft does not have most of these, then your GPS installation may not be IFR legal, an appointment with your avionics shop might be a good idea. By the way, if your GPS or GPS installation is not legal for IFR then it must be placarded.

Danb- I have not had any dealings with him. I can try to get a little local airport intel if you like.

Samurai- Go visit the flight school in Tracy, Livermore or Modesto. Make a deal with them to fly to Palo Alto, pick you up, give you an hour or 2 training, drop you off back at Palo Alto and fly back. Probably wouldn't cost any more than what you are spending now for the Cirrus, you won't have to drive too far to the airport, the CFI will get more flight time and you'll get more training. We have to "think outside the box" to get you trained up!

I would like to know what the requirements are for a student to solo from an airport only a few miles from KSFO, with the unpredictability of the weather in the bay area, in a $500,000 airplane. He could leave on a solo cross country in clear conditions and return a few hours later to 100 ft - 1/4 mi in fog. Throw in Samurai's schedule, instructor scheduling, airplane scheduling, weather, and possible much higher solo minimums and Samurai could be working on this for a very long time. It's the sort of thing that discourages people from learning to fly. I would rather fly old beat up flight school junk than not fly at all. The only thing worse than being down here wishing I was up there, is being up there wishing I was down here!

N601:. Good point. I'll bet they won't turn a student loose in a Cirrus with 10 hours under his belt! It might take a long time to get a PPL with all the headwinds the OP faces. Maybe flying the Cirrus is more important than we think. If it was me I would have bailed from KPAO long ago in favor of somewhere that I could get it all done quick.

Samurai- You often mention that you sit around waiting, often for weather. You also complained about having to fly 20 minutes or so during a lesson to get to the practice area. Why not drive to the practice area in your car and find a school close by? I looked online and it looks like Tracy California is a little more than an hour drive from KPAO. It's in the valley which means the weather should be better, and it looks cheaper as the C172 rental rate appears to be $115 per hour, wet. You could drive there and fly all afternoon and spend less $$ than you would spend for 1 hour in the Cirrus at Palo Alto. Plus since the practice area is probably nearby, you would end up with more actual training time. The bad part is you would have less time to spend on the internet hanging out with us, and you wouldn't be flying a really cool Cirrus with all that nice glass. I'll bet you would be learning a whole lot more though with a 172 and steam gauges. You would probably move forward learning to fly MUCH FASTER.

Samurai- A fresh annual is worthless to me unless it is performed by a mechanic or facility of MY choosing. Be wary of someone that offers a fresh annual performed by the same guy that's been doing it for the last several years. You would be surprised what some pilots are able to talk their mechanics into overlooking.

Samaurai- The second one has a MUCH better autopilot, and a stormscope. Go check one of them out to see if you think the cabin size and access will work for you.

Samurai- Both of those planes are well equipped for IFR. I believe that you would have a hard time finding a $100,000 airplane that was VFR only, unless it was a brand new LSA type of plane.

Airnav- Best bet is to contact a fellow mooneyspace guy that lives in the area, he will know a mechanic to help you out. Might even know the plane. Drop a line to marauder, he is a big help on these issues and a big contributor on this board, plus I think he lives in the North East. He will likely chime in in a bit.

I guarantee that any C182RG Turbo that you come across WILL be equipped for IFR, and make an excellent instrument trainer, and a goid transition plane towards a Mooney.

Samurai- Experience comes from doing different things, different experiences, different planes even different instructors. Instructors are human like the rest of us some prefer teaching instrumenrs, some prefer primary, some multi engine and some like to only teach ground school or in the simulator. It's possible that your instructor is the world's best instrument teacher but really doesn't care much for teaching primary. He sees that money is not a problem to you and that you are enthusiastic so he "goes with the flow". He might be great at primary instruction too. The thing is that you won't REALLY know untill you take a lesson or two from another instructor or two. So here is my suggestion. On the days when your instructor or the aircraft are not available, check out another instructor at a different airport in a different plane (C172 or PA 28 or similar). It might seem like you are wasting your time backtracking a bit doing maneuvers with the new guy that you already learned from the last guy, BUT, you will be gaining that experience thing. Finally, the best instructor is rarely the guy that is the "best" at something. It's often the guy that had trouble and learned to overcome. For instance: Suppose you want to learn to play golf. Do you think Tiger Woods would be the best instructor, or some guy that really struggled for decades with the game but finally became pretty darn good at it? I think the latter, because that is the guy with patience and the EXPERIENCE in overcomming all of golf's challenges. You are not locked in to any plane, airport, or instructor. Go out and try different stuff but most of all have fun and be safe. It's an adventure! Drive to that little airport where the weather is better, the planes a bit worn out and the instructor a bit younger. By the way, early in my career I was an instructor. I taught only instruments and was scared to death to teach primary!

Difference in price could be any number of things. Avionics, overhaul time, who did the overhaul, general condition, damage history, maintenance history etc. Plus some year models might have differences in performance or max gross weight or other factors. It's a "can of worms" for sure to figure out if a particular plane is fairly priced. It takes a lot of time and research to do it well. For a person in your situation, you might be better off hiring a buyers broker to find a plane for you at a fair price. Plus there are a lot of sellers that don't REALLY want to sell their plane! The wife tells them to get rid of it, so they price it high, and tell you that it's the best one on the planet. Then you spend money to go see it, and find it's nothing like it was described and the guy is just stringing you along to show his wife that he is TRYING to sell it. Been there done that!!

Samurai- Here is a review for you: http://timbroom.com/N5284T/Cessna-182RG-Review.pdf The review is for both models of C182RG, you have to pick out the info on the Turbo.

Samurai- Here is something you may have not considered. A rule of thumb!! Ideally you want to clear mountains or a ridge line by 1000 feet for every 10 knots of wind at your altitude plus a safe margin of 1000 to 2000 feet. So that 8000 ft ridge line may require you to safely cross it at over 12,000 ft if the winds at your altitude are 30 knots. Plus you will want to be in VFR conditions so you can see the rocks. IFR flight at 12,000 feet during anytime of the year MAY put you at risk of picking up ice, which is very dangerous, especially in an aircraft with limited altitude capability (non-turbo). One more thought. Think of a turbo as a tool that will allow you to take off from higher airports with a good load, and to cross the mountains with a safe margin. After crossing the mountains you can always descend back to where you feel most comfortable or don't have to suck on O2. It will still come in handy in the 10,000 to 12,000 ft range as you will be able to push the power up a bit for good speed or pull it back for maximum range. On a good day in the winter you might be able to ride on some 100 knot tail winds at altitude.

Samurai- I'm looking for a plane myself and came across a C182RG Turbo near me. I had previously discounted the C182 for some of the reasons you have mentioned, plus I wasn't too keen on the 1500 hr Continentals and their cylinder problems. The Lycoming in the C182 is a great engine and has been around a very long time. They are used primarily in larger Piper aircraft and not normally seen in Cessna(s). Anyway, when I started to research the plane I found that it is an entirely different beast from an everyday C182. It is a very much evolved and improved C182. An amazing aircraft with truly stellar capabilities while maintaining the great handling and easy flying of a C182. Retracts and a turbo make it very different from other C182 aircraft. I have family in California and I figure I can fly non-stop to Texas. You can pick up some awesome winds in the high teens. It sermed to me a perfect machine for your mission, experience level and travelling companions. Compared to a Mooney the cabin is like a stadium! The aircraft has so much utility and capability I think it will retain it's value better than most. By the way, the owner of the local C182RG Turbo reports that his annuals are usually in the $1500 range with an occasional $2000. The price to overhaul the Lycoming seems very reasonable also.

samurai- i believe you are mistaken. The C182RG Turbo (retractable gear), has a fuel capacity of 88 gallons, fuel burn is around 12 gallons per hour and speed about 160 to 170 knots depending on altitude. Range therefore is about 1000 nautical miles. Useful load is about 1200 lbs, plenty for full fuel and dogs or pax. The big thing is that it is the only C182 with the Lycoming engine which is known for it's reliability, 2000 hr TBO and it usually makes it!

Samurai- Take a look at the Cessna 182RG Turbo. I think it has some advantages over the 210. Lycoming engine with 2000 hr TBO for one, and both the turbo and gear system are reported to be very reliable after 1979. The strut braced Cessna wings seem to have fewer maintenance issues than the non-strut braced wings. It's just a bit smaller than the C210. Here's one: http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1394429/1982-cessna-turbo-r182rg-skylane

What is the tail number?

A Beechcraft A-36 is an awesome plane, easy to fly, speedy and comfortable. Big wide doors for loading big dogs or whatever else. But I think you nixed that idea a while back because you didn't want a 6 seater. They are certainly worth checking out.

Samurai- The risks that you don't see right now in your airplane shopping experience are similar to the ones you don't yet see in your flying endeavors. More about the purchasing risk in a moment. The NTSB reports are filled with folks like yourself that came into a bit of money and didn't want to be bothered with flying something like a Cessna 172 for a year or two after getting their pilots license. The Cessna 172 is one of the safest airplanes in general aviation, it's also one of the most popular. Why fly a slow Cessna when you can fly a Cirrus, speedy RV6, or a Bonanza? Because the C172 will cover your butt when you screw up! It's a forgiving, slow airplane that will let you make mistakes and live to learn from them. You can't get into a high speed spiral with it, it's nearly impossible to snap roll on a poorly executed base to final turn, it won't get high enough to fly over many mountains, and if the worst happens it crashes slow enough that you stand a good chance of surviving. If you have to, you can land it in a parking lot, I once saw one parked at a rest stop along the interstate! Someone made a bad decision but survived anyway by making a good decision. The airplane allowed him to learn from his mistake. Suppose you just received your PPL and are silly enough or unlucky enough to try to get home and you encounter unforcast weather like fog. Would you be safer in a C172 or a Bonanza? If you had to let down through the clouds, which plane would be most stable and which would give you the best chance of picking a good spot for a forced landing if you had to do one? How about if it was night? I've been looking for an older Mooney for 5 months now and have rejected most due to poor logbook record keeping or maintenance history. Purchasing an aircraft can be a serious threat to your financial condition if you are unaware of the risks, just as flying can be a serious threat to your life if unaware of the risks. Experience makes you aware of threats that are impossible to learn in a training environment. Here is a recent Cirrus crash that happened during training that probably would not have happened in a C172. http://www.theeagle.com/news/local/investigators-work-to-find-reason-for-navasota-plane-crash/article_0701eb8e-df70-11e5-ad85-cb98bbbbbd90.html Ever hear of Thurmon Munsun? Famous baseball player, learned to fly, bought a jet, game over. We are not trying to discourage you, but warn you that you are at risk. Be safe, take your time, have fun.

I hope he ran out to buy a lottery ticket AFTER changing his britches!

Samurai- Sounds like you are going about this the right way. Plenty of smart folks on this board that are more than willing to help. Ask lots of questions, look at lots of planes and fly as many as you can. Most on this board are happy to give a ride to anyone that likes Mooneys. There are lots of options out there and any plane you get will be a compromise, find one that will meet most of your missions.