glafaille

I could be mistaken on Dunkirk, I think I saw it on the Mooney Service Center list. I will send you a PM with the info.

Marauder: The aircraft is at 9G0, 9 Golf Zero. M20C in great shape but with a run out engine, stll passes compression checks though. Is there anyone in the area that can do a GOOD prebuy "inspection" or maybe just a hands on look see? Nearest MSC is in Dunkirk but I'm not certain they are "Old Mooney" savy. I need to give them a call. I'm not sure when I can get to the area myself. It would be helpful if a knowledgeable person took a look for me. Thanks. Gene

DXB: Thanks for the offer to visit Airmods. I think Dave might have one that will work but it's tough right now to get away. Anyone have any contacts in the Buffalo NY area? I am talking with a guy there about his plane. Sounds good but hard to travel right now for me and expensive to get to Buffalo on the airlines. I need some "hands on" intel.

OK, I guess I'm going about this all wrong. I'm going to focus on finding a plane for a fellow mooneyspace member who wants to upgrade and buy his old ride. I'm now looking for a Mooney Missle! Seriously, Twinter if you hear of something in my area, I'll be happy to check it out and take LOTS of pictures of the plane and logbooks for you. I'm a professional pilot and have been around planes for a very long time and have received instruction from Don Maxwell on things to look for on Mooneys. I'm no expert but I'm very thorough. Maybe that is why I don't yet have a plane.

Still looking! Seen a few, but they were not as I expected. Made an offer on one at the sellers asking price, then was told the plane was "as is where is", he was OK with a pre-buy but unwilling to pay for the repair of anything if found. Passed on that one! Was going to airline up to Airmods Fllight Center for a look a couple of weeks ago but got sidetracked at work, now I can't get away for a trip. Been about 4 months now, starting to look at Piper Arrows. I'm not getting any younger.

Capt: Is that a Loran?

I am more of a minimalist than most on this board. I take the Bill Lear, designer of the Lear Jet, philosophy. To paraphrase; Anything you don't install, is one less thing you have to maintain. In other words, be very careful the equipment you install is absolutely necessary for the mission, because the cost to maintain that equipment, will add to the cost to maintain the aircraft. An Ipad and a Stratus can go a long way to assist in point to point enroute navigation. All of us can request and usually receive a heading to an enroute VOR or airport without GPS. Where a GPS shines is for approaches at airports not served by an ILS. One must consider how much he is willing to pay for this capability and how often the capability will be required.

I don't believe that you can legally shoot a GPS approach unless the database is current. Enroute IFR is allowed with an expired database as long as the waypoints are individually verified. I don't like that we are held hostage by the database providers who seem to have a monopoly on both the use of GPS navigation systems and their lifespan. If a database provider decides to no longer support a particular GPS, the usefulness and value of the unit are diminished. The data needs to be standardized between vendors so others can provide support when Jeppessen, Garmin or King do not. Where are the NEW inexpensive IFR GPS navigation systems? The ones that are NOT the "All in one" type that cost $10,000 plus install. Do they exist or is the only BUDGET choice a used system on the verge of obsolescence?

Marauder- I agree that it's wise to not throw any new money into the ADF, but if it's there, and it works, why not put it to use? You don't have to shoot approaches with it to gain usefullness. The problem with GPS is the expense. They are expensive to purchase (new), expensive to install and expensive to maintain (subscription). Furthermore, their lifespan may be shorter than what we are used to. Even now, parts are unavailable for some of the first and second generation systems, screens and circuit boards usually. Subscription services have been discontinued for many, making otherwise good navigation systems unusable for approaches and limiting their usefulness. One may be forced back to the ADF for lack of subscription data!. Not legal to shoot approaches with expired data, right? GPS is an awesome tool but not without it's problems.

I frequent Rockland, Maine (RKD) which has two NDB approaches, Apalachicola, Florida (AAF) which has one NDB approach and I am based at Longview, Texas (GGG) which still has an NDB/LOM which I use for situational awareness. ADF is still nice to have for the places we fly to, even with GPS/FMS.

Look at what approaches are available at the places you travel to most often. If you have an ADF already installed and it can be used at the airports you visit then you might as well leave it in. I'm tired of people saying that ADF approaches are extinct when I find PLENTY of NDBs still out there, and the associated approaches published. It is rare to see an ADF approach without a GPS approach overlayed with it, but ADF is still useful in some areas Plenty of ILS approaches have an NDB co-located with the marker beacon to fix the FAF. Great for situational awareness in the terminal area when you don't have GPS and a moving map. For those of you that think the ADF is extinct, I can send you current approach plates for airports that still use them. Is ADF on it's way out? Sure, some day! But in the meantime it's still useful, as is VOR. Plus no subscription expense to use these facilities like there is for GPS. If you are on a budget, fly "old school".

Supercop0184- Thanks so much for the generous offer! What great folks on mooneyspace. I wouldn't sell the Cherokee until you find a Mooney! That would put you in the same boat as me. Hard to track down all these planes in out of the way places without a plane. I'm thinking of expanding my search to include other manufacturers to better my chances of scoring a suitable aircraft before I hit 65. I'm 59 now and haven't had much luck thus far. Having friends with planes will improve my odds.

One of the problems is that cylinders are not serialized to my knowledge and therefore difficult to track. If the aircraft was built prior to 1973, the odds are they were overhauled in 1973. Few owners are willjng to write the check for new cylinders on these engines unless they have to. Therefore I'm betting this will be overhaul # 2 on the cylinders. One consideration; As a buyer a "Top Overhaul" is meaningless to many and may not get you a higher offer than a "run out" engine. A proper overhaul includes a lot of other stuff than just splitting the case and overhauling the cylinders. Hard IFR, family on board, time of expected ownership, and re-sale value are the things that make this a hard decision.

42 years since the last overhaul is a very long time. Lycoming recommends 12 years between overhauls and although just a suggestion, you are several times past that. Might be time to bit the bullet.

I don't NEED gps but it would be nice to have. I think I need an autopilot more. Fix the PC system and upgrade it a little to enable tracking or holding a heading.

Sorry gents for the confusion. Maybe I should start a new thread or only talk about a plane that I am serious about. So here is the run down. Lubbock Aero M20C - The original plane starting this discussion. It appears that it sat in a hangar for over 10 years without an annual and not flown. Has flown less than 10 hours in the past 12 years, was annualed by Lubbock Aero twice in past 2 years. Owner refuses to allow the airplane to be moved for a pre buy. Looks nice online, 6 pack panel, 1990s radios with basic Garmin GPS, nice appearing paint and interior. Low time on engine but old (1997), mid time prop subject to 100 hr AD. Green and White M20C - Had a gear up landing within the past year. Engine was NOT torn down and inspected per the Lycoming Prop Strike SB. Have not seen a logbook entry documenting the repair of the airframe. Perhaps it wasn't scanned and sent to me. Located in Spring Branch. Red White and Blue M20C - This one is a candidate, and I intend to go look at it this weekend. Nice paint and interior, fuel bladders, recent overhaul and prop. Old King radio package, KX170bs. No GPS, nonworking PC wing leveler. White Gray Maroon M20C - Drove 6 hrs each way to see this one last weekend plus hotel stay. Dent in wing tip likely a big deal. Has a nice Stec autopilot, 6 pack panel, mid time engine with old overhaul (1994), AD on prop, nice paint, fair interior, probably not compliant with SB M20-208B. I tried to buy at the asking price, but wanted the seller to cover airworthiness squawks. The seller will allow a pre buy where ever you want but will not pay for any squawks at all, airworthiness or otherwise. Nice price though. Seller is a nice guy, just has no room whatsoever to maneuver on the price. I don't know if the market is heating up or not, but I'm sure "beating the bushes"! Stuff is bound to fly up!

Mike - Yes I have. Been over there several times talking to Don. Nothing on the radar at this time.

Clarence- Concerning the Green C model in Spring Branch and the engine repair following the gear up landing. I talked to Forrest at Calkins Aero Service concerning the repair of the airframe and engine. Apparently the aircraft was NOT insured so the owner paid for the entire repair. The engine was not torn down and in fact Forrst thinks the Lycoming SB concerning prop strike inspections is unnecessary. He did the repair on the airframe but is unable to explain why the logbook entry concerning the repair seems to be missing from the scans provided to me by the broker. It's possible I was not provided with a complete copy of the logbooks, maybe a page missing from the scan. In any event there is enough about this plane to move it off of my candidate list. Therefore, I'm still looking.

Chrisk- That is exactly what I have been doing, except for hiring of a local mechanic for a quick "look about". I think that idea will be incorporated into all future potential deals. That would certainly rule out the owners that are deaf or blind when it comes to their aircraft. It's a very complicated process frought with many expensive "pot holes". I'm learning as I go, but the education is expensive too, just not as expensive as the "pot holes".

Animalmover: Thanks for the kind offer. I work at the Longview airport and would very much like to meet you and your airplane. I travel to Marshall for business from time to time. But if you happen to be in Longview sometime please let me know, I'll buy lunch.

Merrja- I'm sorry to hear of your engine problems and I'm glad you and the airplane were not hurt. Would you mind telling me which Mooney you have and whether or not you had a pre-buy performed when you bought it. Did you have them look at the cam as part of the pre buy? I'm betting you don't have a C model, by the price of the engine.

As the cost of a pre-buy increases, the condition of the aircraft and records must increase, or the asking price of the aircraft must decrease. Example: If I find a suitable aircraft in Don Maxwell's hangar, I can afford to spend top dollar for it as it's sitting right there, and easily inspected. Problem aircraft are easily identified and easily ruled out. My only cost is Don's time. But if the aircraft is located 300 miles away in a small town far away from any airline service, or an interstate highway, like most Mooneys seem to be, then the expense of a pre-buy escalates rapidly, even more if the airplane can't be moved to the Service Center. Mechanics must be shipped in and their travel time and expenses compensated. A $1000 prebuy can easily turn into a $3000 or $4000 pre buy. Plus a busy shop like Maxwell's may not be able to turn loose of a mechanic for a two or three day trip. So the aircraft and records MUST be in pristine condition and the price VERY reasonable for the seller to gamble $3000 to $4000 on a long distance pre buy. Frankly, I have not yet examined a single aircraft that I would consider worthy of taking the gamble. It also says something to me about the sellers confidence in his aircraft's condition and maintenance history if he will not allow inspection by a Mooney Service center. We are talking about airworthiness squawks here, right? Why would anyone want to fly an aircraft that wasn't airworthy? If I lived in a small town without easy access, and wanted to sell my aircraft, the very FIRST thing I would do is take it to a MSC for an annual to help give the seller a warm fuzzy feeling, and get top dollar for the aircraft.

Jet- Thanks again. I'm sure you are right, might explain the offset rudder trim tab. Doen't matter now though, the deal is off as the seller refuses to fix anyrhing at all. It's an "as is" sale. I'm not brave enough to tackle the deal under those terms. Back to shopping for a plane!

I'm looking for a C model myself and although I've never owned one, I have become very familiar with many of the things to consider. With respect to your question concerning the prop, here is what I have learned. Replace hub and keep old blades is about $3500 but your blades must be good, if not figure on $5000 for an entire replacement prop. For a new Top Prop I have seen eveything from $7000 to $8500. Leaking fuel tanks and corrosion are potential problems, educate yourself on those 2 issues. SB208B concerns the inspection of the tubular structure for corrosion and replacement of insulation, make sure it has been complied with. The leaking tanks issue is common and something most owners have to deal with occasionally. The only permanent solution seems to be the installation of bladder tanks although some folks swear by a total strip and re-seal by a dedicated Mooney tank repair company.

Doc: I admit I am relying on the broker's description that the aircraft was landed "gear up". There is no entry in the logs supplied to me that indicates a ger up landing. Furthermore, there is no record of an incident or accident on the FAA website. I will try to confirm exactly what happened.