toto

Ugh, this is really a tough situation. I'm hopeful that the MS braintrust might be able to help get you airborne again soon. Glad to hear you and your wife are healthy, even if the plane is not Why on earth did the shop cut the wings in half? ETA: Misunderstood that this was posted by the owner. Looks like the owner is @Irmin on MooneySpace

There used to be a really neat museum at KMKC, the Airline History Museum - with probably the most beautiful flying Connie in the world. The museum still exists, but has been involved in a very public spat with the city and the FBO, so it's been more or less closed to the public for a couple of years. I think they've actually had to sell the Connie, although it might remain at the museum under new ownership - not clear yet. https://airlinehistory.org/ Anyway, maybe next time you come for a Garmin class, they'll have it all sorted

Not going to be in the class, but I’m local - my favorite BBQ is Joe’s Kansas City. There are a couple of locations in the city, the one in Overland Park is only about 15 mins by car from the Garmin HQ. Joe’s KC is open Monday through Saturday. Other BBQ restaurants that are popular are Q39 and Jack Stack.

I’ve been treating this primarily as an academic discussion without much practical value. But it’s certainly worth understanding the regs and the AFMS and how they relate to each other. I always appreciate this community for the wealth of experience, and I often learn a lot from these academic discussions.

I don't have my AFMS in front of me, so I'll happily defer to you on that - I'm sure you're correct. I was just picking this as an example case where no FAA regulation requires an operable GPS, but the vendor has a configuration that requires something not required by regulation.

I think I sent the thread in a weird direction. I was just asking out of curiosity whether the Garmin AFMS for the GTN series required a current database for ground-based navigation. I later checked my own AFMS and did not see anything to indicate that the AFMS requires a current database for, e.g., flying on airways to an ILS, but the point is that the AFMS controls and not the regs. Garmin absolutely can do this using their own configuration and their own supplement. An example is the fact that Garmin requires a clear GPS signal in order to fly an ILS using a GFC500. This isn't something that anyone at FAA requires, and nothing in the regs would say you need a GPS in order to fly an ILS, but Garmin requires it and included in their AFMS. So even if you *could* do it with your GTN+G5+GFC, your AFMS would prohibit.

I went and pulled my AFMS to see what they say about databases for enroute, and actually it reads essentially the same as the GNS: I don’t see anything here about using ground-based navigation signals.

I don’t think I agree with this. Garmin absolutely could say in their AFMS that you must have a current database in order to fly enroute on airways using the VOR receiver in your Garmin navigator. Whether the navigator technically allows you to do it does not control whether it is permitted by the AFMS.

This goes back to my original question. Does the AFMS require you to have a current database if you’re navigating using ground-based nav sources? If not, then your re-route to an airway is not a problem.

You don’t need an EFB. Just compare the lat/lon of the airport in the database with the A/FD.

For GPS direct to an airport, the airport is your only waypoint. You can easily confirm what the database thinks the airport information is, and you can confirm that the lat/lon has not changed.

Fair enough. I honestly can’t imagine why someone would think about flying a GPS approach with an expired database, and it isn’t something I’ve ever considered. But there is a significant amount of utility in GPS direct routing, and if you’re going GPS direct from one airport to another, there aren’t a lot of waypoints to check. For most of my flying, the destination airport has an ILS - my question about the AFMS was really just about whether Garmin requires a current database for flights that use ground-based navigation signals (either for enroute or approach).

Interesting. It’s been quite a while since I had a GNS, but I thought it was new to the GTN AFMS and I thought that that was generally understood. Never mind ETA: I looked up the GNS AFMS and it definitely says “or verifies each waypoint for accuracy” as an alternative to having a current database.

This was an unhappy change for those of us that went to the GTN series from an earlier Garmin navigator, but as mentioned above it was never especially practical to manually verify all waypoints anyway. Out of curiosity, do you know offhand whether the AFMS for the GTN series requires a current database for enroute or approach operations using only ground-based nav sources?

I think it’s about $200 for the initial ADlog setup.