wombat

The install cost is also a huge factor in this decision. Adding the fuel transducer will be a hassle, but also adding in MP, RPM and OAT and pressure will add a couple of hours each to the install. At $90/hr, upgrading to the G3 would cost an extra $800 or so just for the install as well as the difference in unit price. I'm just glad I am able to convince my co-owner to get anything.

After doing yet more research, it looks like I'm going to go with an Insight G2. While I won't be able to replace any of the existing gauges other than the EGT, the unit is the cheapest one that does the minimum of what I want. We are going to put in ADS-B Out this annual and the panel will already be open, so the install cost for this will be minimal. A better picture of the existing panel can be found here: https://goo.gl/photos/USttYdqsgyKWrfiB9

Thanks, carusoam for the additional support for getting a monitor. That sort of detail will really help. We have plenty of money in an engine reserve account, he just doesn't want to spend it on an engine monitor and would rather overhaul the engine right now. He'd be fine if I paid for the whole thing. I'm thinking about doing some sort of deal where I pay for it all upfront but after 2,000 tach hours on the engine we put the engine reserve money toward the monitor until it's paid off. What we have in the engine reserve right now is not quite enough to get a good overhaul.

I got a response back from EI that I've pasted below. I also got a very helpful message from gsxrpilot. The way I understand it is: The CGR-30C can't do the asymmetric instrument I made the picture of. Out of the list of things I want to do, none of the CGRs can do what I want on their own and also replace my current engine indicators. A CGR-30P and GCR-30C would if I bought them both. The JPI EDM-900 or EDM-930 will, as will the MVP-50. As gsxrpilot pointed out, the Insight G2 will do the most important things I'm looking for (temp monitoring/logging and fuel flow and calculations) The EDM-900 series and MVP-50 (or the combination of a CGR-30P and CGR-30C) is out of my budget for this year. So I could potentially get the Insight G2 and replace my SR-8A, but at a likely $4,500+ cost installed and we'll still have the old cruddy fuel gauges I don't think this is in the cards. Thank you very much for your e-mail. The CGR-30C can monitor up to 16 primary functions, the first 8 being included in the purchase price. As such, you can easily monitor a single CHT, single EGT, fuel pressure, oil temperature, oil pressure, L & R fuel tanks, amps and manifold pressure on an arc gauge. One other function will also be display as an arc gauge due to symmetry. As that totals 9 functions, there will be an additional charge for the ninth function. Most likely amps at $39.00. The difference between the 30C and 30P is that the 30C does not make a full fuel compute or engine analyzer available. Those are only available on the 30P. The difference between the 30P Basic and the 30P Premium is the Premium version allows you to select the 5 primary functions you would like to monitor in addition to RPM, EGT and CHT (all cylinders), which are always included. The 30P Basic is always configured identically which includes RPM, EGT, CHT, fuel flow, volts and OAT. No other functions can be added or substituted. The largest benefit I can see for you to upgrade to either of the 30Ps and/or 30C is they are both certified primary instruments and can legally replace your factory instrumentation. While the SR-8A offers monitoring of all 4 cylinders, it does not do so simultaneously, assist in leaning or log data which can aid in viewing engine trends. Again, the SR-8A does not legally replace any of your aircraft's existing instrumentation. Please let me know if you have any additional questions.

I just sent a message to EI, let's see how they respond: I have three questions, with additional details about the questions further below: #1: Can the CGR-30C be configured as I would like? #2: Can you elaborate on the differences between the CGR-30C, CGR-30P and premium CGR-30P? #3: Can you help me understand the benefits of having this Vs. a SR-8A which is already in my aircraft? Question #1:Could it be configured with the following as primary instruments on the main page: CHT Fuel Pressure Oil Temperature Oil Pressure Fuel level (L tank) Fuel level (R tank) EGT Amps Manifold pressure (with the arc indicator) I need all of these things to remove most of the existing engine instruments; this configuration would leave only the vacuum and RPM/Tach gauge. A faked-up image of the configuration think would work for me can be found here: https://mooneyspace.com/uploads/monthly_2017_02/30c-Configured.thumb.png.69943e2bfce457144b45e816446cfa66.png Question #2: The only difference that I can see between the C and P is that the C has annunciators at the top and the P has room for an extra row of indicators. At about $600 extra for each step up I'm not sure what exactly I'd be getting. Question #3: My co-owner would prefer to overhaul the engine now and not get an engine monitor and my explanation of the benefits is not sufficient for him. While we both understand that these instruments will allow us to log the engine performance parameters and potentially find some issues prior to significant failure (e.g. A leaking or burned exhaust valve) can you help me understand how else this will allow us to safely extend the life of our engine or run it more efficiently?

And you are right that a lot of the work is not highly technical during the install and even I could drastically reduce the install cost. The problem is that I have a 9-5 job and the shop is a 3 hour drive away (with no traffic - 4h40m hours with traffic) Maybe I could take a couple of days of vacation to do this though or go down on a weekend and do 'prep' work that the mechanics don't need to be there to supervise me for. I can take screws out like nobody's business and get the seats/interior removed.

The shop I generally go to (Advanced Aircraft Services in Troutdale, OR which is a Mooney Service Center) www.advancedaircraftpdx.com gave a guess at the installed cost of the MVP-50p at $9,400. Attached is a hacked up image of the configuration I made for the CGR-30C that would have everything I need/want on the primary page. It has all 6 of the 'cluster' instruments plus fuel pressure, manifold pressure and EGT. I'd keep the existing RPM/Tach and replace the rest of the engine instruments. Page 2 would have the standard bar graph of CHTs/EGTs and fuel flow, for leaning and fine-grained power adjustments.

I'm having trouble convincing my partner that getting an engine monitor is a good decision. We are at right about 2,000 hours now and have had no engine problems at all in the last 3 years I've owned the plane. We fly it 100-200 hours a year (Depending on how many trips I take to the midwest or east coast) Does anyone have any advice on why an engine monitor is financially a good decision? Or if you have other thoughts, why it's a bad decision? I'm thinking about saying something like "For every hour past TBO we fly, we should consider the normal maintenance reserve amount to go to the engine monitor until it's paid off" and at $20/hr, if we reach 2,300 hours then it was a good decision, plus the aircraft is more valuable. This is assuming $6,000 net cost of monitor + install - resale of used avionics. The way I am thinking about it, the most cost effective device for us might be the EI CGR-30C, which EI lists at $2,952 on their website including the Engine Data Computer (EDC). Before deciding anything, we can talk to EI in a couple of weeks at the Northwest Aviation Conference to make sure that unit can do what we want and we can get it for the price we want. We would need a couple of extra pieces like the FT-60 Fuel flow transducer for $130, but those are pretty minor costs I think. There are several things we'd be able to replace and sell to help reduce our cost at that point: 6-pack of engine instruments ($700?) MP/Fuel Press ($100?) EGT ($100?) SR-8A ($100?) What we'd gain is: Data logging Fuel flow monitoring for more precise power control More accurate fuel usage measurements Ability to look at all CHTs and EGTs at once for better problem identification if one cylinder is acting up No fuel or oil lines in the instrument panel Assuming the same sort of install effort as the CGR-30P and that the shop rate is $90/hr (I forget what it is, I'm just guessing) that puts our total cost at $3150 for labor plus $3300 for the hardware, minus $1,000 for selling the existing hardware, for a total of $5,450. This number is estimating high on accessory cost and install cost and low on sale price for our existing hardware. If the install is only 30 hours and we don't need any extra parts and we get $1,500 for our stuff and a 10% discount, that would put us at $3,987. The real price will probably be somewhere in-between the $3,987 and $5,450

I bought with 1700+ SMOH a few years ago and am happy with the decision. Now over 2,000 and the engine still runs great. I watch it as closely as I can (and am considering installing a better engine monitor so I can watch it better) Reasonable worst case is that I have to IRAN/Overhaul/Replace the engine and then I'm starting with a new known quantity but I got a couple of years out of it in the meantime.

The IO-360 engine in my 1964 M20E is relatively high time right at 2,000 hours and many years and rather than replace or overhaul it for no known reason I'm considering getting an engine monitor and replacing the existing instrumentation. Some of the features that I find valuable with this are: Better temperature and leaning control since I can see all 4 cylinders at once Recording of data so I can analyze it later Fuel flow and totalizer plus getting rid of finicky existing fuel gauges Easier engine scan since it's not spread out between the the ends of the cockpit What I have right now is mostly original with the addition of an EI SR-8A where I can cycle through the different EGTs and CHTs. The 'contenders' that I know of and their list prices are: EI GCR-30P ($3600-$4300) EI GCR-30C ($3000) but I'd have to keep the existing RPM and MP instruments EI MVP-50P ($5600) JPI EDM-900 ($3400) JPI EDM-930 ($5800) Whole panel (Plus nice view) picture of the current setup in my plane: https://goo.gl/photos/JFcCbL1DHnappGus6 I'm leaning toward the GCR-30P or JPI EDM-900 because they are the cheapest that allow me to replace (and sell!) all of the existing gauges and instruments. Panel space is not a concern; I could add the EDM-930 and a second GPS and keep all of the existing gauges and it would still all fit although that would be tight. Does anybody have any thoughts or ideas? I'm planning on talking to both manufacturers in February at the Pacific Northwest Aviation Conference & Trade Show later this month. They generally offer 5% or 10% discounts at the show. My annual is coming up in March so the timing seems about right.

Marauder: Is the "22.0 USD" showing on the 830 the gas bill for the flight so far?

Badmoonraising: Is that series of PDFs and leaning procedures something you can share with the rest of us? Or maybe just me. Regarding keys: My plane used to have three separate keys, one for the door, one for the baggage door and one for the ignition. I went to a local locksmith with a sample of the door and baggage compartment locks and asked if they could re-key those to be the same as the ignition key. They could do the door lock but not the baggage compartment lock. They could give me a brand new lock similar to the baggage lock, but I'd have to countersink a flathead screw into that to make it fit. Countersinks are cheap in Mooney dollars and having one key open everything on the airplane is really nice.

I'd say it's less luck and more good planning. There are a few routes around that have MEAs above 13,000' but mostly you can make it at 13,000' or below. A lot of them have MOCAs of 11,000' or less. If you are flying very heavy those altitudes might be slower to achieve without a turbo, but you should determine what altitude you can climb to and plan for a route that doesn't require you to climb above that. Even a C is fast enough that you can go around some pretty big mountain ranges without losing too much time. Sure, having more power at altitude and being able to climb higher/faster would allow you to fly additional routes, but there is still plenty of flying that can be done without a turbo.

I've crossed the Rockies 4 times now in a M20E in June July and August. I did go solo, so climbing to altitude wasn't a problem. If I want to go direct or nearly direct over the mountains I also want daylight and a lot of room between the mountains and clouds; 5000' ceilings from the valleys at least. I don't mind going IMC if I will have an opportunity to pick a good landing spot visually in the event of an engine failure or icing. If I don't have those things I'll pick a different route to give me good access to lowlands and glideable airports.

When my plane is hangared in a private hangar with a lock on the hangar door I typically don't lock it, but I do remove the keys and take them with me. When the plane is outside I lock the doors. I don't think that there is significant risk of the airplane getting stolen and flown away.

Where did all of your circuit breakers go? We can't see the right edge of your panel, but they used to be lined up on the bottom next to the yoke, and they have moved somewhere!

When I see sellers that have silly requirements like "It won't leave my hangar" or "Only my mechanic will do the pre-buy" I just run the other way. That screams 'anti-authority' because they believe they are the only authority on their plane. Which also means that if they think that duct tape is an acceptable method for holding pieces on, that's what they are going to do. Let that sale fall through, they'll maybe re-price it later or change their minds. And while maybe that plane is a good deal and very safe, you might not know until it's too late. Which could be on your first annual, or worse, on your first flight.

I've got a M20E myself in Seattle and have taken my plane down to Troutdale for my pre-buy and annual. It's about an hour to an hour and a half flight from Arlington. I've found them to be knowledgeable and helpful. I'm not sure if Command Aviation is a MSC, the Mooney website doesn't reflect that which makes me a little curious. And being a MSC or not doesn't mean that they know their stuff or not, even in relation to Mooneys. Also, I'm available to ferry planes and provide training if you need it. Getting that plane over the Cascades and Rockies this time of year will be fun for someone.

Well, I am not sure what the USPS was doing for the last two weeks, but my spare keys finally showed up. Next stop: Key shop to have extra copies made.

I've asked my shop to try, they will stop by with their ring of keys sometime.

I had three keys previously, all different. The door and baggage door I can get replaced without too much problem, but the ignition is an issue.

So I lost the keys to my plane. Luckily it's unlocked in the hangar so I can at least get inside it. Yes, I had a spare set of keys at the shop, so I asked them to mail the keys to me. The spare set never showed up. Now I'm trying to figure out how to get a replacement set of keys for the plane. Does anyone have any good ideas?

I too have a '64 M20E and had a leaking boost pump. My plane had a dukes and I replaced it with the Weldon last summer; it was a drop-in replacement. About $800 for a new pump from aircraft spruce plus an hour or so of A&P time.

I just talked to David, and while has has a new stub spar, he is unable to find an A&P willing to go to his home field (It's a small strip) to work on it. He can't really take it anywhere because it's completely unairworthy. It's in a hangar so not really degrading very much and he has hopes of getting some work done on it over the next year or two. In the meantime he bought a Stinson and has been flying that (got his tailwheel endorsement to fly it).

I doubt their claims because they don't have statistically significant data available that proves their claims and they have financial incentive to overstate the benefits of their product. I would like to put their exhaust on, but it's a gamble to do so... Will the cost of purchasing and installing the exhaust and the extra time the aircraft is down waiting for it pay off in fuel savings, engine savings, increased airspeed sale price? If they had more data I'd be able to make a more informed opinion. But without that data I am just going on my pessimistic opinion of humanity and wild guesses. As for the ELT; a new 406MHz ELT is a lot more than the $47.50 that it cost to replace the antenna on my existing one. On Aircraft Spruce it was $579 for th ACK. So I saved myself $520 on this annual. Yes, it would be safer to have the new one. It would be safer to have a new engine. And a new airframe. And a second engine. And a full-time CFII-MEI. And a second GPS. And a third VOR, and redundant attitude indicators... And on and on. There is no end in sight. We each have to figure out where our budget intersects with our desire for safety and speed and comfort. This year mine crossed at a new antenna. Maybe when the battery runs out it'll cross at a new ELT.