Overhauled TSIO 360 LB Quits Mid Range

[Al Matt]

We have a full team working on this issue, but given the knowledge and experience residing within this forum - I thought I would ask if anyone else has had the problem (and what the fix was!). To clarify, I am not an engineer and I am not doing any of the work. We have a 1984 M20K. The TSIO-360LB failed last year and we completed an engine overhaul. In addition to the 'new' engine, we overhauled the turbo and took the opportunity to add a Turboplus intercooler (the plane had a Merlyn wastegate and that part was sent to Merlyn in order to accommodate the new intercooler). Here is the issue: when pulling power back from max power, the engine quits. Thus it runs at idle and it runs at max power - again - when pulling the throttle back from max power the engine quits. 

The fuel pump, flow divider, and throttle bod were sent to Consolidated. The only part working properly was the flow divider. The parts were repaired and reinstalled.......but the issue persists. The wastegate was then disconnected, but this did not prove to be the issue. 

Again, I think we have a competent team working on this (including Savvy, the overhaul shop and now Continental). I could not find the issue elsewhere on Mooneyspace, but I have to assume someone else has had this problem. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated. 

Many thanks

[Z W]

Not that exact problem, but I would suspect the fuel pump settings.  The TSIO-360 has a complicated engine set up procedure that must be performed after engine install and after fuel pump replacement that many shops are not familiar with.  It requires some gauges and instrumentation and is very easy to get wrong.  It also requires cowling and de-cowling the engine multiple times and is very tedious.  It used to be called SID97-3G which is attached.  That has now been replaced and superseded as a part of Continental's M0 maintenance manual, but as far as I can tell, it reads the same.

Step #1 for me would be to have someone verify all the proper fuel pressures and flows are set per M0.  I would also verify the air intake is unobstructed and properly connected.  The engine sucks a lot of air with the turbo, through a very small intake plenum, and any restriction can cause odd behavior like this.  Sounds like you have a fuel/air mixture ratio problem.

SID97-3G - Continuous Flow Fuel Injection Systems Adjustment Specs and Instructions.pdf

Edited August 30, 2023 by Z W

[Al Matt]

Thank you very much. I will pass along these thoughts. I appreciate it. 

 

[A64Pilot]

The fuel system is complex enough and finicky enough, requiring special tools and experience with it that I’d suggest finding an expert on it, surely someone will be able to suggest someone in your area.

Not saying for example that I couldn’t figure it out, but I’d make mistakes and probably have to re-do it a few times etc where if I was experienced I’d get it right first time.

[Jim F]

Just to add a bit to what the others have said.  Do you have a engine monitor?  if not you should  An engine monitor would help isolate what event started the engine shutdown.  to troubleshoot, I would verify the fuel flows, but first before I ever touch fuel flows, I pressurize the intake and exhaust system and spray soapy water to find and fix any leaks.  I also clean the injectors before checking or adjusting fuel flows because the injector nozzles are the pressure restriction.  Our engines fuel injection system is a fuel pump with mixture adjustment, and aneroid to automatically adjust fuel based on upper deck pressure.  The throttle body has some brass plates with orifices to vary the actual fuel flow.  Doing the pre-adjustment set up that i discussed and a proper FF adjustment will give you a base line for the fuel system being set correctly.   Remember that with your added intercooler the max MP is ~36in.  Non intercooled max is 40in and with intercooler ~36in is the same air charge just a denser and cooler air.  At max MP your fuel flow should be 24.7GPM + 1gpm(a recommendation from Savvy).  This additional 1GPM is the best recommendation that i have seen for our TSIO-360 engines.  A little extra fuel and my engine runs cool at full power.  

[Al Matt]

Thanks Jim. Stupid question, but just to clarify, you mean GPH (gallon per hour) or does GPM mean something else? We have a JPI 700 and thinking about upgrading to the Garmin EIS 275. Thanks again, really appreciate it. 

[Al Matt]

1 hour ago, Jim F said:

Just to add a bit to what the others have said.  Do you have a engine monitor?  if not you should  An engine monitor would help isolate what event started the engine shutdown.  to troubleshoot, I would verify the fuel flows, but first before I ever touch fuel flows, I pressurize the intake and exhaust system and spray soapy water to find and fix any leaks.  I also clean the injectors before checking or adjusting fuel flows because the injector nozzles are the pressure restriction.  Our engines fuel injection system is a fuel pump with mixture adjustment, and aneroid to automatically adjust fuel based on upper deck pressure.  The throttle body has some brass plates with orifices to vary the actual fuel flow.  Doing the pre-adjustment set up that i discussed and a proper FF adjustment will give you a base line for the fuel system being set correctly.   Remember that with your added intercooler the max MP is ~36in.  Non intercooled max is 40in and with intercooler ~36in is the same air charge just a denser and cooler air.  At max MP your fuel flow should be 24.7GPM + 1gpm(a recommendation from Savvy).  This additional 1GPM is the best recommendation that i have seen for our TSIO-360 engines.  A little extra fuel and my engine runs cool at full power.  

Sorry for the double reply. With regard to the MP setting, we were told to expect a differential temperature of -35 which translates to a max MP of 37.5. Looking at the chart from Turboplus, a max MP of 36 would suggest a differential of -55.....is this what you regularly see? 

Thanks again, 

Al 

[Jim F]

31 minutes ago, Al Matt said:

Thanks Jim. Stupid question, but just to clarify, you mean GPH (gallon per hour) or does GPM mean something else? We have a JPI 700 and thinking about upgrading to the Garmin EIS 275. Thanks again, really appreciate it. 

Hi Al, Sorry that was a typo,  GPH gallons per hour.  My GB does not have an intercooler so my max MP is 40inchs.  What ever your paperwork says on max MP that's where you should see the max FF 25.7GPH

[Bruce]

This post may be a bit late. I hope you got your problem figured out. Hope to hear what the solution was. We just got finished working through the TSIO-360 fuel injection set up, and we found it very challenging to achieve the specifications required per SIB 97–3, Continental M-0 publications. This was a newly overhauled engine, including overhaul of turbo charger, fuel pump, and throttle body. We found that the adjustments necessary to get close to the specifications were very small and have to be done in the specific order, and then recheck from the beginning. Cowling, uncowling, cowling is a pain but the cylinder temps stay cool. Pack a lunch, and then some. 
Bruce

N231CH

[Al Matt]

Hey Bruce, 

Believe it or not - the issue was only just resolved. As part of the engine overhaul, the fuel system was sent out to a 3rd party (for overhaul). In short - that party did not do what they said they did and continuously pushed back (lied?) on the issue. The system was removed, sent back to them twice - (thus 3 times in total) and they continued to claim it tested serviceable. The system was then sent to another group - who found a hairline crack in the aneroid, a corroded bellows and an improperly resurfaced fuel rod. Effectively - as I understand - these issues were causing the system to stick at a high fuel flow setting which was flooding the engine as power was reduced. This group claims to be experts in fuel systems.....be careful. 

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, Al Matt said:

This group claims to be experts in fuel systems.....be careful. 

Sounds like it's more than just a personal preference, so it might be nice for all of us to know who NOT to use. 

 

[jlunseth]

The MP used to set the fuel flow is specified in the STC for the Turboplus intercooler. I have posted the STC instructions before, you could do a search to find them, but you should have received them from Turboplus with the intercooler. The max MP to be used when setting the fuel flow varies  with OAT but generally is in the range of 37. The SID is used, but is to be modified in accordance with the Turboplus STC. Setting the fuel flow is indeed tricky. I like Savvy’s max + 1 GPH for summer flying. It helps keep the engine cool. 

The fuel flow setting was not your problem I see. Just providing information for you to use in setting the fuel flow now that you have the problem solved.

[wombat]

11 hours ago, Al Matt said:

the fuel system was sent out to a 3rd party (for overhaul). In short - that party did not do what they said they did and continuously pushed back (lied?) on the issue. 

This should probably be reported to the FAA.  If they have done this to others, they're putting them at risk.

[jlunseth]

PS I find it necessary to provide my A&P with the instructions in the Turboplus STC pretty much every time the fuel flow is going to be reset. A&P’s tend to default to just using the SID and don’t think about the Turboplus STC, because they are used to setting fuel flows in the more modern engines where the intercooler is not aftermarket.  If they do that, chances are pretty good that they are not making the max power FF setting at actual max power.