Size Comparison...not what you're thinking!

[Shadrach]

Quote: astelmaszek

I'm sure the bonanza crew will tell us that Mooney's are pigs too ;-) What do you mean when you say pig? By a beech standard, mooneys are terrible pigs.

[John Pleisse]

Quote: astelmaszek

I'm sure the bonanza crew will tell us that Mooney's are pigs too ;-) What do you mean when you say pig? By a beech standard, mooneys are terrible pigs.

A piper arrow does have better control harmony than a mooney. Mooney is a A to B airplane and does so wonderfully, my last flight from KCBF to KTOP took 35 minutes and included exactly 30 seconds of hand flying, the rest was done by twisting knobs. I love that about my airplane but I'm not going to pretend they are fun to take for a spin and go poke holes in the sky. The aillerons, rudder and elevator have completelly different gradients unlike let's say a Baron which is a joy to fly by hand without looking at instruments.

I like my mooney but I do not have a religious affiliation with it. It's a very compromised airplane meant to climb well and go fast but leaves a lot to be desired. But it also leaves a lot of money in my pocket vs a Bonanza.

[AndyFromCB]

Actually, you can make an Arrow do 150knots. Full LFS kit plus the LoPresti cowling but it will set you back a pretty penny for the cowling. They made a lance, a real pig, win quite a few races in the 1980's. The piper wing is actually a laminar flow wing, it just takes a lot of work to make it work like one. I love how everyone here so easily disregards other makes. There are Cherokees out there with full LFS kits that have won many, many races at speeds approaching close to an unmodified M20C.

Mine regulary did 145 at 6000 doing a 4 way run. 148knots required full aft loading. But yes, a standard arrow will never make the book numbers. My Bravo on the other hand, does book numbers with TKS.

I also know of a F33A with TATurbo that smokes by Bravo at 12,000 by about 10knots on 4 gallons per hour less with 400lb more useful load.

[PTK]

Quote: Shadrach

[Shadrach]

Quote: N4352H

My comparison was a 201 v. an Arrow and I stand by my assertions. Introducing 2 Beech products into the conversation (one, a twin) is a different analysis and I could go all day.

To be productive and helpful to our topic starter, Greg, the Arrow is the only one of our 3 mentioned (201, Deb, NA Arrow) that can really haul the extra 150LBS. The Mooney's useful load is less by 125 lbs and while the IO470 Deb's and Bonanza's can haul the same as the Arrow, they fly out of CG quick enough to negate that useful load as a comparison.

Don't even get me started on the Beech/ Mooney comaparison, I need to take some time off from work for that one. The Mooney is simply a better airplane.

[AndyFromCB]

Actually, the numbers above are not very accurate either. A M20J does not cruise at 170knots. A M20J is a 160knot cruiser. The Arrow II is also not a 143knot cruiser. 135 is more like it. A M20J is always going to smoke an Arrow by about 25knots but you can modify an Arrow to be within about 10knots of a M20J. Let's not forget that all of M20J's speed gain over the M20F was aerodynamic clean up of an already clean airframe. There is a lot more to cleanup on an Arrow.

Mine was an honest 135knot cruiser at 6000 verified with 4 way runs. Laminar Flow Systems claimed a gain of between 15 and 26mph for a full kit with wing smoothing. I never got the full gain but we didn't do anything to the wings surface, just seemed like a lot of work but we did get 10knots in cruise improvement at a loss of 10lb of useful load.

I spoke with others on the piper forum who had the LoPresti cowling installed and the consensus was 5 knots from the cowling. Same guys that cleanup the M20J cowling so it's not snake oil they are selling.

Two more knots can be had by going to the two bladed simitar Hartzel prop so technically, if you really wanted to spend 22K, you could end up with a 152knot Arrow. I just go tired of dumping $$$ into mine, sold it for half of what I had into it and bought a Bravo.

Where the Arrow is a total pig and Mooney just shines is high DA climb rates. Even with all my gap seals, VGs, etc I'd take off from KAPA on a hot summer day and be lucky to see 300FPM. A M20J will easily do twice that in the same conditions.

[Shadrach]

Quote: allsmiles

[PTK]

As I said Ross, it's an excercise in compromises! I was just posting the 200 hp so it's an apples to apples comparison. You will notice though that the Arrow flies like a rock in view of its takeoff performance. It's a paradox it seems. It should perform but it doesn't. The Mooney exposes it for the mule that it is. The Mooney just does things better all around. We all own Mooneys for a reason right!?

 

[Shadrach]

Quote: allsmiles

As I said Ross, it's an excercise in compromises! I was just posting the 200 hp so it's an apples to apples comparison. You will notice though that the Arrow flies like a rock in view of its takeoff performance. The Mooney just does things better all around. We all own Mooneys for a reason right!?

[gregwatts]

The Arrow has a built in headwind that even the best A&P cannot uninstall. The Mooney not only cruises faster, but climbs and descents are much faster in a Mooney.

The Piper doesn't have that awesome looking tail section either......just sayin'

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: astelmaszek

Actually, you can make an Arrow do 150knots. Full LFS kit plus the LoPresti cowling but it will set you back a pretty penny for the cowling. They made a lance, a real pig, win quite a few races in the 1980's. The piper wing is actually a laminar flow wing, it just takes a lot of work to make it work like one. I love how everyone here so easily disregards other makes. There are Cherokees out there with full LFS kits that have won many, many races at speeds approaching close to an unmodified M20C.

Mine regulary did 145 at 6000 doing a 4 way run. 148knots required full aft loading. But yes, a standard arrow will never make the book numbers. My Bravo on the other hand, does book numbers with TKS.

I also know of a F33A with TATurbo that smokes by Bravo at 12,000 by about 10knots on 4 gallons per hour less with 400lb more useful load.

[John Pleisse]

My experience with Mooneys v. Arrow with useful load has been more like the Arrow being 1050-1100 and the Mooney being 925-1050(1050 on it's best day ever and don't weigh your plane). That extra 100+ lbs in the Arrow is for real and isn't overly negated by CG issues. Again, my limited experience.

[GaryP1007]

How about the Turbo Arrow III or IV?  170kts at altitude.

[Shadrach]

Quote: astelmaszek

I also know of a F33A with TATurbo that smokes by Bravo at 12,000 by about 10knots on 4 gallons per hour less with 400lb more useful load.

[Shadrach]

Quote: GaryP1007

How about the Turbo Arrow III or IV?  170kts at altitude.

[pjsny78]

Quote: GaryP1007

How about the Turbo Arrow III or IV?  170kts at altitude.

[N33GG]

Cherokees are fine aircraft. I have probably flown every combination of body, wing, engine, turbo, and tail feathers available.  And I have hundreds of hours in several versions.  Also, I have personally owned one.  

In all fairness, and not to repeat what I may or may not agree with that has been said, the Cherokees have a major advantage when compared to the Mooney regarding ownership.  With many, many Cherokees out there, parts are very affordable.  And ANY mechanic can work on them with basic training and skills.  

Hence, whatever the Cherokee may lose in speed to a Mooney, it makes up in affordable ownership and cost of operation.

As for the rest of the arguments, have at it.  Game on!  

[N33GG]

Double post...

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: Shadrach

You might do that for a bit, but you'd be replacing jugs at every annual...

[AndyFromCB]

Ross,

Cownling/Cooling efficiency has a lot to do with it too. Look at Acclaim/Bravo. Both essentially identical airframes, same horsepower (well, almost), acclaim is almost 20knots faster than the Bravo. I'm not sure the flat plate measurement takes that into account. I know good 5 knots is in the prop alone.

Same with the F33A, owned by the way by an individual with initials B.D., not a dentist. If you ever looked at the TA Turbo install vs what's under the cowling on a Bravo, it's a work of art. There is just a lot less cooling drag involved. I top out at about 190knots at 12,000, burning 21.5 per hour. His F33A slowly passes my Mooney, burning 17.4 LOP. My CHTs are in the 360s, his in the 330s. If I had 400K to spend on a toy, I'd take a TKSd TAT A36 anyday over my Bravo. However, for the total of 150K I have invested in 7RD, it's really hard to beat for a mini airliner.

Scott, BTW, I am about to close a deal on a Super D, so I'll have my fun airplane that I'll actually enjoy flying.

Andy

[Parker_Woodruff]

Quote: astelmaszek

Scott, BTW, I am about to close a deal on a Super D, so I'll have my fun airplane that I'll actually enjoy flying.

Andy

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: astelmaszek

Scott, BTW, I am about to close a deal on a Super D, so I'll have my fun airplane that I'll actually enjoy flying.

Andy

[Shadrach]

Quote: astelmaszek

Ross,

Cownling/Cooling efficiency has a lot to do with it too. Look at Acclaim/Bravo. Both essentially identical airframes, same horsepower (well, almost), acclaim is almost 20knots faster than the Bravo. I'm not sure the flat plate measurement takes that into account. I know good 5 knots is in the prop alone.

Same with the F33A, owned by the way by an individual with initials B.D., not a dentist. If you ever looked at the TA Turbo install vs what's under the cowling on a Bravo, it's a work of art. There is just a lot less cooling drag involved. I top out at about 190knots at 12,000, burning 21.5 per hour. His F33A slowly passes my Mooney, burning 17.4 LOP. My CHTs are in the 360s, his in the 330s. If I had 400K to spend on a toy, I'd take a TKSd TAT A36 anyday over my Bravo. However, for the total of 150K I have invested in 7RD, it's really hard to beat for a mini airliner.

Scott, BTW, I am about to close a deal on a Super D, so I'll have my fun airplane that I'll actually enjoy flying.

Andy

[AndyFromCB]

Scott,

Its kind of a lie to say I don't enjoy flying my Mooney, as they say about sex, even my it's bad its good ;-)

I love my bravo for what it is, a personal airliner for poor folk like myself but it's not a blast to go put around in it. It's a single purpose airplane meant to be flown by the numbers, go fast, calculate your landing weight just like a jet, calculate your stall, your approach speed and then it's the most predictable, strongest single engine airframe. And it does great for that purpose. And I get kicks out of that like last Friday coming down to mins at Kcbf during a snow storm, hand flying because my autopilot is out in Tulsa and still flying better than my arrow did when coupled. Like I said before, it's like it's on rails. I love it for that.

Put for putting around which i enjoy very much, flying slow, doing short field work, even just doing some steep 360s, it's not a fun airplane to do that. It's slow in the roll, heavy in the elevator, and way too light on the rudder in comparison to the other forces. Just like an airliner I assume. 

I'll gladly meet you half way in the super d and go burn some fuel but it will be a month or two before I feel comfy taking passengers up, need to get some major instruction first, only flew it for about an hour before buying it, I don't even have my tail wheel endorsement yet. Insurance company wants 15 hours of dual vs 3 in the bravo which I guess makes sense. Kind of hard to kill yourself in a mooney.

I'll pm you when I'm ready.

Andy

[scottfromiowa]

it's a date...Remember "Tail draggers have more fun...and bigger calf muscles"...Center the ball!  Get the stick back!  Get the stick forward!  (just getting you tuned up for your instructor)  Have fun!  A Bravo and a Super-D...Living my dream.