Mooney Partnership/Block Hours At KVNY

[davidfreedman]

With the birth of my son a month ago, I anticipate my '83 M20J will see little flight time in the coming months.  I'm looking to take on equity or block hour partner(s).  For those of you that follow the market I'd love your feedback on my thinking in terms of pricing.  And for anyone interested, please post or PM.

Partnership:  Value based on conservative vRef at $116k (split 2 or 3 ways).  Not that it's relevent to today's pricing but I purchased her in '08 for $124k and have put in about $10k in upgrades.

Block: 5 hr/mo @ $70/hr dry, 10 hr/mo @ $60 hr dry

Equipment list and photos at http://mooney1171p.weebly.com/index.html

 

 

 

[flight2000]

Are those rates inclusive of the insurance premium going up for something like this?  My policy would need to be rewritten unless the prospective "renter" met the open pilot minimums.

If I was in CA and didn't have a plane, I'd certainly be calling at those rates.  We have a '65 M20E that rents at $70 an hour dry on our airfield.

[kortopates]

I'd look at Jimmy's latest valuations for the J which just came out in the current issue of the mapa log. But for rental rates those look competive given down her in San Diego, Arrows rent for between $120 (without GPS) to $138 wet w/GNS430 in the club I instruct at.  

[legallegend]

Why can't something like this come up in my area.  Good luck to you.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Quote: davidfreedman

With the birth of my son a month ago, I anticipate my '83 M20J will see little flight time in the coming months.  I'm looking to take on equity or block hour partner(s).  For those of you that follow the market I'd love your feedback on my thinking in terms of pricing.  And for anyone interested, please post or PM.

Partnership:  Value based on conservative vRef at $116k (split 2 or 3 ways).  Not that it's relevent to today's pricing but I purchased her in '08 for $124k and have put in about $10k in upgrades.

Block: 5 hr/mo @ $70/hr dry, 10 hr/mo @ $60 hr dry

Equipment list and photos at http://mooney1171p.weebly.com/index.html

 

 

 

[legallegend]

If either of you were in Knoxville, TN, I would be all over it.

[davidfreedman]

Brian - the rates do no include insurance.  If I do an equity partnership, I will add the individual to my policy at their cost and they would have to meet the open pilot minimums.  For block hours, I will likely require that they get their own insurance and provide proof of insurance to me.  I may modify this, but as I recall, my policy (at its current rate) has restrictions around rental.  Thanks for the info on the E...sounds like I'm more than competitive.

Paul - thanks, I will look at the latest valuations...haven't checked those out yet.

Legallegend - I've spent a good deal of time in Nashville but have always flown commercial.  I'll ping you if and when I ever get around to flying 1171P out your way and we'll fly.

Jim/Nick - My motivation is really to preserve ownership, keep 1171P healthy and have good people flying her.  I'm concerned that if she sits on the ramp, she'll deteriorate which is both a cost and health hazard.  If figure the closer I am to "market" the tougher it'll be to get someone flying her.  Making up some $ above and beyond incremental variable costs is good but my secondary concern. 

Nick - Your site looks great and is inspiring me to be more complete with my info and expectations on my site.  I'm curious to know how things come together for you...keep me posted!

[N6784N]

just a little food for thought. i have 2 guys that bought block time from me. i didnt put any stipulation as to how many hours they had to flybetween the both of them i think  they have flown 15 hours in all. if i had it to do over again i would tell them they have to fly at least 1 hour per monthwhich comes off the block time they purchased and have some sort of currency flight time. anyway for the very very little money i get to help pay the plane off im stuck scheduling my own plane and keeping it clean of all my pilot gear so when they finaly do get around to flying it its clean.

[jetmech1972]

If you were in sacramento or the bay area I would be very interest in a partnership. I will be graduating nursing school in may and after finding a job will be looking to start flying again..

[flyboy0681]

I concur with everyone here, the rates you are asking for are way to cheap given the condition of the plane and how its equipped. Before I bought my J last year I was paying $160/hr wet for a 172S down here in Fort Lauderdale.

[N6784N]

201 flyer its not my business by any means but im getting 70.00 per hour dry in my c model. you have a 201 and i think if you hold your ground you could get 75.00 to 85.00 per hour based on 10 hour blocks. that way the buddy you get to fly your plane is paying cessna 172 prices for the speed of a well equipped mooney. heck just being able to fly a mooney is worth a few bucks an hour imo

[thinwing]

Has anyone checked on insurance availibilty.How does one get insurance (not talking about nonowned rentals insurance offered by aopa and avemco)on an aircraft that someone doesnt own???I am aware of the open pilot limitation on my policy but donot think it applies to renting aircraft out...kpc

[kortopates]

I think David's insurance expectations are unreasonable for the block hours arrangement. Every pilot needs to be a named insured on the same owner policy; especially given the rental relationship. See what your underwriter or agent has to say as I am no insuarnce exppert. However, given how busy you are right now with the birth of your son, why not check out the local flying clubs at VNY's for poetntial lease back? Google shows several and at least one member owned club at VNYs. A club may provide you the least hassle and safest means to subsidize your aircraft ownership without giving up control permanetly to a partnership - unless that's what you prefer.

As for all the comments about how underpriced your potential rates are, I have two comments. First till the insurance is a known quanity in the equation the rates are pretty meaningless to a prospect pilot; which a good reason to go the club route. Secondly, here in southern california we have flying clubs at virtually every airport providing very competive rates - apparently much cheaper than in other places in the country. Google again shows that at VNY one can rent a 2002 172SP for $100/hr wet, and a 300HP Saratoga for $140/hr wet; and the latter with a GNS530 - that was just one club. But as an equity club it probably has the best rates on the field.

 

[flyboy0681]

Wow, a 172SP for $100/hr wet. Looks like I got rooked for a lot of years down here.

I used to fly out of Van Nuys myself in the early 90's from Van Nuys Flight Center, right off of Vanowen. I'm looking at a price sheet now from May, 1993 and it lists the following:

 

1987 Mooney 201 (N5688M) for $82/hr wet

1984 Turbo Saratoga (N8188M, with RNAV!) $104

1985 Turbo Arrow (N4380G, with Air) $77

And my favorite rental, 1989 Turbo Trinidad (N2528D) $92

I personally would not lease back just based on how people treat rentals.

 

[davidfreedman]

Jeff - thanks for the feedback.  I'll bump up the price for any non-MooneySpace fliers:)

Paul - your message motivated me to get more specific.  I'm with Chartis (I think the old AIG was folded into it) and here's what I've got.  For a pilot that meets the Open Pilot requirements, I can add up to 2 as renters (meaning they pay more than fuel and oil) for a 10% premium which in my case would amount to about $200.  The requirements are 500TT, 100 Retrac Time and 25 in make/model.  On the last requirement, I've never had a problem with putting non-renter friends on my policy who meet the requirements but in another Mooney model.  Non-owner runs about $1200 annually at my hull value and can, of course, be used to cover any plane one flies.

Flyboy called it on my resistance to leasing to a flight club though your points are valid.  I want to have a personal relationship with anyone who flies 1171P.  Its important to me that expectations are clear between us and that 1171P is treated well.  While there are no guarentees that nothing bad will happen, it see a solid personal relationship as reducing risk.

With regard to local rates, I'll have to research the buy-in terms to get those low club rates you list above. 

[kortopates]

I watched another Mooney CFI lease his 231 back to our local club at MYF and he was very successful maintaining a personal relationship which began with a checkout he personally conducted. But it wasn't enough, his beautiful Mooney was in the shop 3 times in a 1.5 years due to prop strikes. So from that experience, our club was ready to ban Mooney's without more stringent currency requirments than our annual BFR requirement. So although having people you know and trust is one thing, I would suggest verifying recurrency with some limit such as 60-90 days between flights before requiring a ride with an instructor or yourself. Providing incentive through a minimum 1 hr per month on a block rate might be a helpful way to encourage it as well. I'd also suggest other constraints like not allowing touch & goes to reduce greater exposure to runway incidents. My point is not to suggest how to rent your aircraft but to suggest being comfortable with the people you rent too is not enough in itself and suggest developing some rules or operating procedures that reduce risk from lack or currency; at least for low time Mooney pilots. Maybe that's what you already meant by expressing your "expectations" to them.

For someone that doesn't have any Mooney time, 25 hours is lot to require given typical clubs such as the one I am affiliated with only requires 10 hrs for almost all retracts and 15 hrs for a presurized Malibu. But getting them on your policy for a 10% premium seems like the way to go - the big benefit of clubs is that members don't need to buy expensive rental insurance upfront but do instead pay small monthly dues to cover such cost. I notice not that many clubs publish their rental rates, mine does which is a good comparison for a club that charges less than $30 a month in dues for access to their fleet and is viewable here: http://www.plusoneflyers.org/fleetlist/ if that helps. Your local equity club's older Cessna rate was about the same as ours ($90), but their Saratoga rate is $52 an hour less than hours ($192/hr wet). Go figure, but our Saratoga doesn't fly much either.

[Skyatty]

Dave, weird question for you, does Reveille mean anything to you?

[davidfreedman]

Paul - tremendously helpful suggestions on operating procedures.  That is generally what I was talking about in terms of "expectations" but I hadnt considered touch and goes or recurrency.  To date, I've always been familiar with the skill level of anyone who's flown my plane as we'd flown together prior.  But again, did not consider recurrency.  As far as the relatively high bar for Mooney time, it's exclusionary but in alignment with my desire to partner with Mooney fliers.  And aside from my opinions, the insurance requirement is what it is.

And that's one hell of a fleet your club's got!

 

Skyatty - Production house?

[flight2000]

Quote: flyboy0681

Wow, a 172SP for $100/hr wet. Looks like I got rooked for a lot of years down here.

I used to fly out of Van Nuys myself in the early 90's from Van Nuys Flight Center, right off of Vanowen. I'm looking at a price sheet now from May, 1993 and it lists the following:

 

1987 Mooney 201 (N5688M) for $82/hr wet

1984 Turbo Saratoga (N8188M, with RNAV!) $104

1985 Turbo Arrow (N4380G, with Air) $77

And my favorite rental, 1989 Turbo Trinidad (N2528D) $92

I personally would not lease back just based on how people treat rentals.

 

[flyboy0681]

Another thing to note, of the four planes I listed, 50% of them (the Mooney &Trinidad) were destroyed in crashes. Thankfully there were no fatalities.

A few months ago I went through my logbook and looked up all of the planes that I rented over the years since 1981 and was shocked to find that a good 30% of them were involved in crashes, three of then fatal.

Most recently, a 172S that I rented down here in 2008 went down due to flight into MVFR (Orlando area) the day after I flew it, taking all four aboard. That incident shook me up.

 

[Barry]

Ya gotta quit reading that stuff !!