DaV8or

Quote: Jeff_S The 201 was in production for so long there are many variants with different attributes, and of course as time went on many nice things were added. Most owners will tell you that one of the single most important improvements was the one-piece belly panel, which helps SIGNIFICANTLY when doing maintenance (my A/P says it saves him about two hours).

Quote: ErickR What about a nice 231? They seem like a lot of bang for the buck... If I was looking for a newer bird that would be one I would consider.

Any type specific things I should look for as gotchas that are different than the E? I know about the dual magnitos and the dukes gear motor/actuator on the '77 I guess, anything else?

Quote: Bean Would you mind sharing what you had agreed to pay in the first place? The E model you are looking at seems to be quite unique.

Ok, so here's what's happened since yesterday. The seller has made some calls and found that his local A & P will do a repair for $6000 including install and a field OH for $15,000. So he comes back to me and says he'll take $60,000 for the plane as is and I'll take all the risk if the engine turns out to un repairable. If the case and crank are bad, that could cost me another $5000 at least. I look at it this way; $60,000 as is airplane with all the above upgrades. $22-24,000 for either a overhauled or overhaul with new cylinders engine from a reputable source with good warranty. $3,000 for Russell at Texas Southwest Aviation to install plus parts associated with that. $500 for new engine mount rubber. We already know these need to go. $8,000 (my est) for a panel redo to make it more like a 201 panel and add a Garmin SL-30 and Airgizmo for the 496. Total= $93,500 to 95,500 and possibly more. Reality check. This puts me into early 201 territory. I'm starting to think about saying goodbye to this plane and start shopping for 201s. It seems like there are a few out there that come close to what I want for the same money and would have better resale latter on. What do you think??

Quote: KSMooniac Thinking some more, if your purchase agreement put airworthiness squawks on the seller, then he should be on the hook for R&R of the engine, teardown, repair or replacement of the case, inspection of the rest of the components, esp. crank and cam, and reassembly. That would return the plane to airworthy status with 1400 SMOH as it was before the crack was discovered and presumably ready to sell (again). The seller may or may not want to do that, but the reality is he won't be able to sell as-is unless discounting appropriately. Having said all that, the extra cost to get to a full overhaul status from what I described above is only cylinder overhaul (or replacement), and cam/cranks/accessory renewal as needed or desired. Some of those might not pass inspection either and be subject to being repaired by the seller.

Quote: Cruiser You do understand that with the engine overhaul you have other FWF issues that will need to be done. Muffler, hoses, baffles, engine mount, prop, governor vacuum system, oil cooler. It is not just pull the engine and put it back in. Of course, with a newly overhauled engine you will want a quality engine monitoring system to operate it properly.

Quote: KSMooniac I think Lycoming is running a special for a reman at an overhaul price, but I'm sure it will still be more than a quality field overhaul. But, you should get the new roller tappet improvements, which is likely a good thing if you're willing to spend the money. Air Power (Van Bortel) used to have the best prices on Lycoming factory engines but I don't know if that is still true since I haven't been in the market. I'm not sold on the "big name" shops for overhauls, but they're probably not any worse than a local shop with a good reputation that you can find by asking around and likely save some serious money. These engines aren't super-mysterious, and I think many places can do a quality overhaul and even go the extra mile like paying special attention to the balancing of components or getting everything back to new limits. I'd value proximity to my home base (in case of problems) and reputation over a big name. You could also check with Zephyr engines from the AOPA forum...he seems quite helpful.

I'm thinking about going ahead with my plane purchase process and procuring a rebuilt or overhalled engine for this M20E. I got prices from Aip Power on Lycoming engines and the Teledyne overhaul. I'll call Mattituck in the morning. I was also thinking of Penn Yan as well. Any other suggestions for companies? How about remanufacturted vs. overhaul?

Oh yeah, I did look at the planes at All American and Moonyland. The one at Jimmy's is really nice but he also wants really nice bucks for it. Flashy new paint and interior, decent panel with 430 but no WAAS. Unknown about the tanks, but they don't seem to be leaking now. They are billing the engine as 54 hours SMOH, however they do say this about the engine; " Note on Engine; the engine was overhauled due to a cracked case (had to be torn down, so owner opted for an overhaul). At that time, the cylinders had only 429 hours since brand new. The owner and overhauler discussed the cylinders and opted to use the cylinders as removed but did replace piston pins and push rod assemblies with new as well as checking tappet clearances for wear prior to reassembly." So, it really seems more like 483 hours SMOH to me. This airplane does not have the 201 windshield that I would really like, but it does have a simple cowl closure and I guess to make up for the windsheild, the guy put wing root fairings, the dorsil fin fairing and gap seals on. The Mooneyland plane is pretty basic stock '65 with new leather in it, but dated and shotgun panel. Dugosh annuals and seems OK, but I think needs a bit too much work to get it where I'd like it. It's also not that cheap for what it is. I've already found cleaner and better at that price point. So it was close and I just had to see it since I was right here.

Thanks for the responses. What I know about the engine is this; it has about 5000 hours TT overhauled by G & N in 1991 and now has just shy of 1400 hours now. Still has good compressions, but there is no meaninful oil annalysis data on it and doing one now won't say much because the oil was just changed. To me it seems like it's just time for a new motor. Maybe I'm wrong.

Quote: Parker_Woodruff Dave I might need to go to Waco at some point this week from Kerrville to pick up a suit for a wedding in San Antonio this weekend (totally forgot it on my commute down here yesterday morning). If you want something to do at the end of the day today (if the WX settles down) or tomorrow I'd be more than happy to pick you up at HYI on my way up there if you want to come along for the ride.

Here's what happened today. I got there and it took Russell's mechanic about 40 minutes to find a real show stopper. They found a crack in the engine crankcase at the base of the number 2 cylinder. We die pened it twice to be sure. I don't have the tech here to download the pictures I took or I would post the crack. Mind you this is a plane that was just annualed last month by an A&P with a reputation here in Texas. The plane has flown about 1.5 hours since that annual. I beleive the owner of the plane to be a very honest and stand up guy. He was shocked about the find, but very accomodating and I am released from any contractual obligation. He even paid what I owed to the shop for pre buy. He's pretty pissed about the annual he paid for. It was the first time he used this individual. He is still interested in working out a deal on this plane and so am I. It seems crazy, but the stuff aft of the firewall keeps sucking me in. Here is a partial list; AIRFRAME 201 style cowling. 201 windshield. 231 wing tips with strobes. One peice belly. Gap seals everywhere. Wing root fairings. Dorsil fairing. Caliper reversal. 1/4" glass all around. Three point retractable seat belts. Upgraded gear motor with the pull style emergency gear extender. O+N bladders in '04. Leather interior. Paint about a 7 and not offensive colors. AVIONICS Garmin 530 with WAAS. MAC 1700 secondary. Garmin 330 Transponder. King KMA 24 audio panel. PS engineering four place. Narco digital DME. JPI 701 engine anyliser with fuel flow coupled to the 530 and tachometer. Accutrac II autopilot also coupled to the 530. Garmin 496 with XM linked to the 530. Original '69 panel layout (not great but OK). The seller is willing to work with me, so I possibly could get this plane with a zero time factory reman engine for about half price. He says that if I don't buy the plane, he is going to have the crack simply repaired as cheaply as possible and a repair is not exceptable to me. He is willing to credit or help pay for the difference to get what I would need, which is a different engine. It's more than I had bargined for, but a new engine that had a bit of a warrantee and a known history with all ADs complied with for sure is an attraction. On the other hand, I still need to learn how to fly this thing and doing stop and goes and stalls on an unbroken in engine isn't the best idea. Also I'd be the test pilot on the way home. I'm going to see a plane at All American tomorrow and maybe one at Mooneyland if I can get a hold of him. So, a lot to think about...

I am sitting in my hotel room in Texas and tomorrow I go for the pre buy at Southwest Texas Aviation. I spent all day getting here and settling in. Tomorrow will be a real hands on learning experience. I really hope it all turns out OK. I will post how it goes for those that are about to, or have never gone through this before. Even if this plane fails, I have back ups. I will be a Mooney owner come Hell or high water, and given the thunderstorm with rain we are experienceing here right now, I think that is possible!

Quote: RJBrown I hope we never get alcohol foisted on us. It makes a BAD fuel for airplanesc cars too. There is a reason mogas with ethanol can't be used in planes with a mogas stc.

What a vourney! One for the Mooney history books. Well done! What kind of seats do you have? I have a hard time imagining sitting in the left seat of a vintage Mooney for that many hours. If it were me, I'd be seriously in pain by the time I got there. Did you do stretches or exercises while enroute?

Quote: jerry-N5911Q Better yet, get an engine that will run on unleaded gas.

Quote: SagemGuy For just 3-4 knots and 10 HP, its just not worth it. Now the one I am interested in, and that I wish they would certify and STC for my Mooney is this one: http://www.lycoming.textron.com/news-and-events/pdfs/TIO-360_Engine.pdf

I get the Airworthiness Directive. The Feds say you have to comply or the plane can't be flown. However, I'm totally fuzzy on Service Bulletins. I guess the manufacturer puts them out based on problems that have happened in the fleet, but is there a regulatory side to it? Like SB 208B, the steel frame inspection. Is it reasonable to expect every single M20 built before 1976 to have had this inspection by now and then corrective action if needed? Do you have to comply or is it just suggested? As an owner, do you have a choice in the matter? How reasonable is it to expect that the seller of an aircraft have complied with every single one in a pretty long list like the one for the M20E? Sorry for all the questions. I'm just trying to figure out what to expect as a buyer. I'm sure it's a compromise between what I would like and what it is.

Quote: edgargravel I arranged for pre-buys at six locations in Canada and the US. We call these pre-purchase inspections (PPI) in Canada. In all cases, the shop knew they were working for me and they all charged me about $500 each to do.

Quote: Parker_Woodruff Unfortunately the last one I heard was gonna be totaled due to Tennessee flooding. I don't think you want those seats.

So, to get the GPS you need to get the 3G version. Does that mean that you need to sign up for the AT&T service to make use of the GPS, or will it work without a subscription? It looks like you are into this device for this much: iPad 64GB 3G $830 Kneeboard $150 ForeFlight $75 (Annual) AT&T?? $360 (Annual) $1415 for the first year and then $435 a year after that. Does this sound right? If I don't need AT&T, I might go for this, otherwise I think that's a deal breaker for me.

I'm looking to lease a very small T hangar for a plane I don't have yet. I'm pretty sure that a M20E will fit, but would like to be sure before I sign on the dotted line. I know the overall length and wingspan, but what I'd like to know is the distance from the widest cord section trailing edge of the wing to the tip of the tail. Also, from the same trailing edge to the tip of the spinner might be helpful too. Anybody know where I could find these numbers?

So you guys with the iPad, how are you securing/holding it in the cockpit? Does it strap to your knee like a kneeboard? Yoke mount? How do you power it, just battery or cigarette lighter?

I'm starting to think that this thread is just an excuse for you guys to show off your super nice panels!