donkaye, MCFI

Flew into Stockton today to leave the airplane for some work. Took along another student who flys a Falcon Jet for his day job and has a Rocket that I would use to work with him on short field landings. I don't like to waste tire tread taxiing so I got down to about a foot off the 4400 foot runway and flew at somewhere close to 50 knots (just above stall but didn't look at the exact speed due to paying attention to what I was doing) to very close to runway end which is closest to Top Gun. I used about 100 RPM above idle. My right seater kept saying, "Aren't you going to land". I said, "Not yet." As we approached the last turn off, I rolled off the power, immediately touched down, and had to taxi up to the turn off. He was surprised, I wasn't. Induced drag is reduced by about 50% at a height of 10% of the wing span. Actual ground roll was a couple of hundred feet in the Bravo. I acknowledge this isn't the same as an approach to a landing where you are mostly out of ground effect, but if you know your airplane you can make very short field landings.

I agree. I was thinking about the normal approach speed, which, unless you have a strong crosswind in excess of 25 knots, will be below 75 knots. I edited the original post to prevent confusion.

Certainly when in the pattern on the downwind to base turn the power is reduced to between 12" and 15" depending on the model and wind conditions. In cruise descent, I thought the Mooney PPP stated no less than 15" but it doesn't say that, so I heard it from another knowledgeable person. My recommendation in a cruise descent is that no less than 15" be used, and gear down (not the landing gear) just like you do going down a steep slope in a car by reducing the prop RPM to the lowest level permitted by the POH. The Bravo has no lower limit, so I gradually reduce it to 2000 RPM in a manner such that any passenger does not become alarmed at hearing a change. However, WHEN I do that depends on the rate of descent required. For the most part at a normal comfortable 500 ft/min descent I just put the nose down about 3 degrees and increase speed to make up for the loss of time in the initial climb. The POH supplement for TKS says no more than takeoff flaps are to be used in icing conditions.

Unless you have TKS you have no business being in icing conditions and even with it there are limits. If you have TKS, then you need a long runway because I agree speed brakes can't be deployed in icing conditions. In any event 20" MP is too high inside either the FAF or GS intercept point. Use the prop as a speed brake and bring it back to 2,000 rpm or less. OTOH mp should be no less than 15". You want the engine to run the prop, not the other way around. Don't forget to push the prop control forward after on speed and slope in preparation for a possible go around. We're not flying TBMs or PC12s. The usual mp on a normal instrument approach for 105 knots (just below maximum flap speed) in the long body Mooneys is between 15 and 17 inches. Stall? At those MPs and approach speeds you are far from stall. Most approaches are not done in Class B and C airspace so shouldn't be rushed in my opinion. If you are operating in the higher class airspaces then once again go out with an experienced Mooney instructor and let them show you how to do them comfortably fast. If another method works best for you, then by all means use it. My comments are just based on flying all models of Mooneys for the past 22 years with the experience shown on my web page here: Aircraft Flight Instruction

I have to disagree here. You should be able to make 2,500 feet every time. If you can't, then please go up with a Mooney Specific instructor and practice with him/her until you can consistantly and comfortably do it. You should not be afraid to base at a 2,500 foot field. There are a number of long body Mooneys based in Palo Alto. There have been times when I have had students go around because I felt uncomfortable with their approach for either poor airspeed control or incorrect slope issues. Never be embarrassed to go around. That's the reason I put the unexpected go around in my Landing Video. Another tip for short field takeoffs: On take off from a short field I recommend always doing a static takeoff, i.e, hold the brakes, apply full power, wait a few seconds for full power to develop, and then release the brakes and go. If you have an engine problem, that is the safest way with the least amount of risk to check it out.

That's the way I do it, with the exception that my mp is 15" and I bring the prop back to 2000 RPM. Prop returns to full forward after on slope and proper speed in preparation of a go around.

A couple of points: 1. If you "chirp" on touchdown, you touched down too fast. You should be able to "roll" the wheels on. 2. Starting the flare at 50" is way, way, way too high. That indicates to me you are going too fast. If you were at the correct speed and started to flare at 50" you would stall the plane by 30' above the ground. You should always be able to see the runway ahead; even as you touch down. Proper flare height is a height such that once you start the flare you are constantly raising the nose and bleeding off speed at such a rate that you "roll" the wheels on as the stall warning goes off and you can see at least 2 centerline stripes ahead of you if the runway has centerline striping. 2. Leadville is at 9,934 feet and the runway length is 6,400 feet. When I was last there they had cross stripes at the 25, 50, and 75 percent of runway length. Book says the Bravo should be off the ground within 1,300 feet at gross weight at 10,000 feet standard conditions. I took off with a DA of over 13,000 feet in the afternoon at gross weight and was off the ground in 1,500 feet. Check your book ROC to makes sure your engine/prop combination meets book and is not "tired" before going into high DA airports. 3. With the AOA, approach speeds higher than about 73 knots at gross landing weight is too fast in nominal conditions. Today at mid weight 68 knots was indicated at mid weight. It will be slightly below 65 knots at light weight. I haven't tried that yet with the AOA. Without an AOA your landing speeds in the long body airplane should be between 75 at gross landing weight and 65 with one hour of fuel and one person on board. (Acclaim, Bravo, Ovations) 4. Yes, I have speed brakes and "pop" them every time on touch down. They are effective on touch down and become less so as you slow down. 5. Fallbrook was uncomfortable at 2,100 feet. I didn't have an AOA at that time (15 years ago). I let the owner out to watch the slope I flew and attitude at the flare as I flew the approach. I was a little fast and was at the edge of a skid to stop, if I remember correctly. I don't remember whether I let him try one, but I think I did. It would be interesting to try it with an AOA now. The airport is on a knoll and is a little like landing on an aircraft carrier, but not as severe as Catalina or Sedona. 6. I had one student who was based at Palo Alto. It took me 30 hours with him before i would sign him off because you really need to be on speed EVERY time and he wasn't. He leased his plane to a flying club and ended up with several prop strikes because non Mooney instructors were allowed to check people out in the airplane. Palo Alto is much easier than most short fields because there is almost always a 10 knot headwind at the airport. If I think of any other tips, I'll post them.

Ground roll for the Bravo at sea level in standard conditions is 1200 feet. You either landed with a tailwind or were coming in waaaaay too fast to burn up that kind of runway. I don't have the 4 puck brakes and can easily stop in 800 feet--or less at 1.2 Vso.

L52, Oceano is 2360 feet. With no significant crosswind and correct speed, that airport should not be any problem. Sea level ground roll for the Ovation is 1,000 in standard conditions. I would highly recommend an AOA to be comfortably able to shave off 5 knots from book speed. The best I've done with the Ovation was the 2100 foot airport at Fallbrook, California. Too short for the average Ovation pilot in my opinion.

Thanks, Tim. At present there is not one other thing I could think of that I would want to put in the plane. The KLN90B manual was one of the best written manuals I have ever read. Too bad BK had absolutely no vision with regards GA, so now Garmin has all of their talent.

I loved my KLN90B and it provided me with years of dependable service all across the US. Being a second generation GPS it also provided me the opportunity to really learn about GPS approaches because most of the approach work needed to be accomplished by the pilot. After I upgraded my panel as a result of a failure of the Bendix King EFIS 40 and their ridiculous $17,000 repair estimate, I bought into the latest technology with the Garmin GTN series. With the exception of the D/T 4 page and better VNAV capability, the new navigators are light years ahead of the KLN90B in capability, especially approach capability. With GPSS much, much more time becomes available for the pilot of oversee the safety of the flight--also known as situational awareness.

As mentioned, if you don't have the equipment to fly an approach, you can't file it unless the field is VFR. It is the same as filing an airport without an approach. In such a case you must file an alternate. Today, there are many airports that only have GPS approaches. If you are going to do some serious IFR flying, I think its important to save up the money to buy a WAAS panel mounted GPS. In many cases now LPV approaches can be flown either to ILS minimums or within 50' of those minimums. Additionally the situational awareness of the newer equipment makes flying an approach seem as simple as walking--effortless.

For curiosity only, why is this unit being sold?

Does the Stratus have a TargetTrend feature? If not then the GDL 39D would be the order of the day for the most situational traffic awareness used in conjunction with Garmin Pilot.

The MVP-50, with the exception of not providing Fuel to Destination, is the most outstanding engine monitor (and much more) out there. The decision to use it in my panel was one of the best decisions I made in my panel upgrade.

From the Pilot Guide of the GTN 750: "Terrain Proximity - This is the standard Terrain function and refers to the display of the relative terrain elevations on the moving map. No aural alerts of any type are provided by a Terrain Proximity configuration." ​If you have a G500 you can get some terrain alerting. The best cheapest method is to feed a Garmin handheld signal into your audio panel.

It's here:

If you are transferring to a certified unit you have to actively make the transfer. This is shown in a Garmin Video.

I bought the Flight Stream 210 just because I was adding the AOA and thought it would be a good time to save some installation money by doing them at the same time. I really never expected to use it much. I find its AI to work very well, although I think they have labeled their Sky Mode and Ground Mode backwards, but I could be wrong. It seems to disagree with that on the G500. The flight plan updating is instantaneous with changes made on the 750 immediately showing up on the iPad for confirmation. I've controlled the GDL 69A XM Radio from it easily, and the traffic information is more informative than that in the 750 in that it gives total targets tracking and what they are; Active, ADS-B, ADS-R, and TIS. Mine is mounted in the avionics bay behind the luggage compartment and I have had no issue whatsoever in connectivity. Additionally, Shirley seems to enjoy watching all the traffic with it on her lap. It's a great addition to the cockpit.

My understanding is that the Jepp Nav Database is only required if you want to transfer Arrival and Departure procedures between units. Flight plans without these procedures should transfer normally.

Personally, I really like the Garmin Pilot App. Just like getting used to a glass cockpit it might take a little time, but the app is really very good , and if you are used to the GTN 750, it is even easier to pick up.

Garmin Pilot says to UPLOAD SIDS AND STARS you need matching databases meaning the purchase of the Jepp Nav database subscription.

The Flight Stream 210 is a small Gateway box to allow transfers of information from other Garmin Products. It can be connected to a GTN or GNS (GPS Position Source for the iPad) and GDL 88 ( Active and/or ADS-B traffic and weather to the iPad ) and GDL 69A (XM weather and XM Radio to the iPad). Additionally it has a build in AHARS so you get attitude information on the iPad. Frankly I like Garmin Pilot. Its icons mimic the operation of the GTN series of navigators. You are confused about the Jeppesen product. You need the $100 subscription to Jeppesen Nav database to be able to have SIDS, and Stars available. Approaches do not require the Jepp Nav Database.

I had the 7000B for many years and loved it. The interface to the GTN 750 made the GMA 35 more useful to me when I upgraded my panel. The 450 wasn't out at the time. Regarding the Bose A20, certainly it is not an audio panel, but I have plugged in either a 796 or an iPod or iPad for music input with no intermediary amplifier and got great sound. Also the 3 position switch allowed for Karaoke or "mute on communication". I got a Y connector so one person could mute while the other could keep Karaoke mode. Yes, it requires a one wire connection, no BT. That's never been an issue for me or my students when on a long cross country.

Without naming a specific audio panel or one with BT the Bose A20 allows muting individually and tremendous flexibility when moving from airplane to airplane and taking your music along as either XM on the 796 or equivalent or plugging in music from another source. As far as audio panels go, I really like the GMA 35 or GMA 350, but many seem to like the newer PMA 450, an audio panel I haven't tried yet.