PTK

Quote: fantom Bada Bing....Bada Bang! Hey Paulie, let's start selling junk with an N# on it. Big profits and it's ain't even a crime, just like selling unneeded dental procedures to the dumb, ignorant, public. It's New Jersey, ain't it?

Quote: RJBrown This plane you guys all know about. Information is recent and available. Lets do a test. Without knowing it's prior N number can you find out information about N30EV ? I don't think it is as easy as suggested. When this plane was sold for the first time post swim AOPA gave it a clean bill of health. Each of the FIVE next owners bought it NOT knowing it was once a Submarine. Even with the old N number N1171J can you find evidence? Fraud is fraud and it appears that the fraud perpetrated by "Planes Are Us" with N1171J is going to be repeated with this plane. The longer and louder we can yell the better. Heck I posted a salvage pic of this one on Flightaware.

Quote: danb35 It must not annoy you too much if you're still posting. Now, let's suppose that the insurer's page describing the flooding with the plane was not available--exactly what research would you suggest that a prospective buyer should do? You are, after all, the one throwing around names like "idiot" and "moron". Presumably, then, there's something simple and obvious that anyone should know how to do that would disclose this history--what is it? Of course, you're right that a (prospective) buyer should research a plane he's looking at--the flip side is that the seller needs to not lie about it, or actively conceal relevant facts. That's called fraud, and it's grounds for significant civil (and possible criminal) liability.

Quote: DaV8or Seriously, you need to look at this from the prospective of the total newbie. If you were new to aviation and never went on a airplane internet forum and you had no friends that were pilots, might you not think that an airplane is pretty much just a simple car with wings? When you are thinking of buying a used car, do you Google the license plate number? I flew for years (with half a brain) long before I ever went on a plane forum and I had no idea that so much information about each and every plane was available to anyone online until I was in forums like these. Why would I? It's not like it's information that is in the PPL course. I can't think of any other vehicle where records are kept open and public. Kind of wish they were, I'd like to look up some of my old cars. A title search would turn up the name of the salvage company, but you would have to know enough to actually do a title search. If honest Jerry tells you the title is free and clear, you might not bother, just as you wouldn't bother with a pre purchase inspection. After all, Jerry's a mechanic right? After frequenting the AOPA forums for years, I learned that there a fair number of guys on there that bought their first plane just this way. No pre-buy, no title search, no escrow account, just handshake and a check. It's more common than one would think. For some it worked out OK and for others it was a disaster. Were these guys idiots and morons that shouldn't be flying? I don't think so, they just learned about used vehicles and airplanes the hard way, that's all.

What we have here is a missing link(s) n the regs in the rtecorded history and an unscrupulous seller who is seemingly wiggling around abd through the process taking full advantage of the missing links. Was the aircraft involved in an accident or an incident when it went for a swim? We don't know if it was an incident or an accident. We further don't know if it was a hull loss accident. There are missing links as to where these things must be recorded and how long are they required to be saved. They must recorded somewhere! It would be criminal to deliberatly lie and conceal records! So far though I don't see how this guy has committed any crime. He posts pics with the reg number! Anyone with half a brain contemplating the purchase of an aircraft would look this up! A title search should uncover something! This is worth following up with if it is going to save a life or at least lots of headaches to somebody.

Quote: N6719N Several years ago, I was looking at another make/model aircraft to purchase. I went through the logs thoroughly... complete and clean back to day one. I decided not to buy the airplane for other reasons. Shortly after I passed on the deal, someone from that aircraft association called me and said "Psssst... you do know that the aircraft you were looking at was the one that was landed on water and sank to the bottom of....". It was only luck that I didn't get that airplane. A few years later, I was looking at another aircraft, clean logs, just like before, but some things didn't look right in the prepurchase inspection. The metal looked funny in places, like nothing I had ever seen before. I started calling previous owners, and one of them said "You know that aircraft was in a hangar fire and it got so hot some of it melted, don't you?" Even with due diligence, and a thorough review of the logs, it is possible to miss big problems in the purchase process. If I were selling this airplane, a full disclosure would be on every ad and posting. Then buyers could decide if they wanted a bargain, but they would know what there were getting. It might not get sold as quickly, and the disclosure might run off several buyers, but when it did sell, I would still sleep fine. But then again, this gets to the core of the issue... I would care and it would matter to me if a buyer got duped. Some people just don't care. Shameful IMHO.

Quote: Parker_Woodruff ummm...I'm pretty sure you used to not find fault with his actions.

Quote: fantom While of course no one has a corner on virtue, using that as justification for false advertising, misrepresentation, and a lack of integrity is unconscionable, IMO. I try to lead a moral life, fall short too often, and get just as angry on unjust treatment of others as I do when the unjust treatment is on me. What the seller is trying to do is unjust and immoral IMO, and I'm offended that you think it's OK. All this is making my teeth hurt, so over and out.

Quote: fantom

Wow! You have some built up anger towards some Dentist in Florida Fantom?! Or do you watch too much tv?! You should come to NJ.

Quote: RJBrown Years ago in 1994 I looked at N1171J a 1982 231 Serial # 25-0708. After looking at it and doing some checking I discovered it had been flooded by the Mississippi river and was sold as salvage by Avemco. It had been completely covered by water in a hanger while the owner was in Europe. By the time I figured it all out and called AOPA they informed me they had just escrowed the sale. I followed it over the years and each time it showed a new owner I would call and let them know the history. All the owners I talked to were glad to know the reason for the trouble they had seen. It seemed that the plane would sell every 2 or so years. The current owner has owned it for 5 years. He changed the N number to N30EV. He was very angry to know the history. He swore at me when I told him that any subsequent owner would also know. early on I did contact the FAA about the fraudulent nature of the sale and log books. They DID NOT care or follow up. The FAA is not there to protect anyone.

Quote: Becca This whole thing baffles me: I don't know why someone would buy an airplane on eBay site unseen and logs unseen. Certainly when we were looking at airplanes, we searched ebay. But then we contacted the seller and asked to arrange to see the logs and visit the plane before the auction closed. If that wasn't possible, we wouldn't bid. I give you, my dear jetdriven definitely tried to sell me on some "great deals" he saw on the internet, even from salvage places, but I repeated the lines: read logs, pre-buy inspection before money exchanges hands. Its amazing though even an educated shopper seems to be able to talk themselves out of that when faces with 5 figure savings. As for the ethics of this particular transaction, @allsmiles protests aside, based on the responses you guys have been getting back, he is clearly being evasive and concealing the damage, on the other hand, used cars salesmen abound. Logs do tell all though and google the N'number gives you a lot of information. However, if the logs have been doctored, then you're getting into criminal misconduct vs. unethical business practices.

Quote: fantom ...Honestly!

Quote: richardheitzman My question to him via ebay was "is this the same aircraft that I remember that was completely submurged, chopped up and sold as salvaged, put back together and tried to be sold with out disclosure of the damage, submursion, etc" and he replied with what I said in the earlier email. I think as we are all in the Mooney community and most of us care about what our community is doing, good and bad, we have a obligation to look out for one another. Would you stand by while your buddy sold an aircraft without disclosing the fact that he did a wheel up landing, put on a new prop and put the A/C up for sale? Of course you wouldn't! So why would you stand by and watch someone sell an aircraft that was damaged beyound economical repair, chopped up into 6 pieces, engine NOT pickled or cleaned, Avionics and wiring submurged and water damaged, put back together without the use of ANY factory jiggs and then sold without disclousure? This guy should be in jail as far as I am concerned, so I voice my concern not only to the person who is selling the aircraft, but also to the community. If the guy wants to fly his own aircraft, and assumes the risk to himself then who are we to make any comment? BUT, as soon as he puts that aircraft on the market to try and sell to a someone who does not know the history, he is a fraud, and a potential murder as far as I am concerned. If there was a way to report this aircraft, and the mechanics who have thier name in the log book to the FAA then I would do it to try and get the certificate revoked. There are very clear rules on how to repair an aircraft that has water damage and in the last attempt to sell this aircraft I discussed these requirement with this person and all he could say was for me to stop slaundering him.

Quote: fantom The simple fact that the seller isn't disclosing it's recent troublesome history.

Come on you guys! Cut the man a break! We all know the airplane has damage history! At the right price though it may make a nice plane for someone! I wouldn't buy it because I don't need another airplane! Some of you may not buy it! But someone may very well buy it and probably should. If they are willing to live with it's history and it is airworthy! It's well equipped . If it can indeed be cleaned up and airworthy what's wrong with it!

Mooney needs to build the M20J for less than 300K. Period. This is the only thing that will lift Mooney out of the mud. Problem is that it takes as many man hours to buikd a J as it does an Ovation or Acclaim. The costs are the same. They need to sell a half a million or more dollar airplane to survive so I don't see them bringing it back. They cannot only sell long bodies. They need the J. The catch is they would have already done so. Now maybe the Chinese can do it by cutting labor costs. Who knows. Anything else is wishful thinking.

It's not good to have hate. It is pure poison to the mind of the one expressing it. It is better to learn to forgive and move on. As far as news sources it is good to have a balance.

Quote: DaV8or We've been over this before. Mooney didn't stop making the 201, rather, people stopped buying the 201. The cost to build a 201 or an Ovation is the same. Pretty much the only difference in cost is the engine and prop and as a percentage of overall cost, the difference is minimal. Buyers with that kind of money chose bigger and faster almost every time. Same goes on over at Cirrus. If it weren't for a few flight schools, the SR-20 would be dead too. The SR-20 is a tiny, tiny percentage of their annual production. We have to all face it, the M20 airframe is outdated and not viable for the new airplane market. It cost way too much to build, has an uncompetitive cabin and is not in step with current aviation trends. Most of all, Mooney needs to understand this. The money is not there to build an all new airframe or to majorly revise the M20, so we have to let go the dream of future aircraft production at Mooney in the forseeable future. The focus needs to be on supporting the existing fleet. Maybe in time, after Mooney becomes a financially viable company again, they could venture out into the world of aircraft production, but for now, the dream of a brand new M20J priced at $200,000 is just that... a dream. Time to wake up and get to work on those parts.

Quote: richardheitzman Al Jazeera is NOT one of the most respected news organizations in the world. Where the hell did you get that drival from? I spent 4 years in the Middle East and EVERYONE including the arabic people wished that Al Jazeera would Shut the F up. They are a propaganda tool for the radical fanatics. If you want to post videos from that organization then do it some where else. "oh I don't want to start a political discussion". pure drival R

Quote: GeorgePerry The average age of a US registered Single Engine Piston aircraft is 34 years old. There are many reasons for this. One thing is for sure, if the current trends don't change, over time, the GA community will only continue to wither. What GA needs is reform. Streamlining the FAA certification process and meaningful liability reform are both long overdue. The current business climate makes the costs associated with GA product and aircraft production prohibitively high. A GAO report recently stated that unnecessarily lengthy FAA certification delays hurt the Aviation industry. The GAO went on to say that the FAA must do a better, more timely job of issuing certifications and approvals. Unfortunately, when it comes to working with General Aviation businesses and fostering industry growth, the FAA is often an impediment to progress. The FAA places the safety of inaction ahead of the public and business interests they should be serving. This needs to change. The FAA should proactively work with industry to streamline and simplify TSO / Certification processes. Meaningful reform would help quickly bring new and innovative aviation products to market in a safe, cost effective way. In addition to the up front costs companies and manufacturers must bear to achieve certification, they are also hamstrung by the requirement to pay shockingly high liability insurance premiums. Unfortunately GA companies, unlike few other businesses, must be ready to preemptively defend themselves against lawsuits and the possibility of outrageous jury awards. The result of these liability concerns forces prices of aviation products through the roof. Without a more business friendly streamlined certification process, tort reform, and reduced government bureaucracy, well-meaning, responsible companies that serve GA will continue to struggle. GA will likely never have a mass appeal, but until regulatory and business conditions are such that manufacturers can produce a 4 place aircraft for around $150K, I don't see GA growing any time soon.

Quote: KLRDMD

Quote: N4352H Mine's been perfect from day 1. I really believe the installer has a lot to do with it.

Quote: KLRDMD

Quote: Mazerbase I have a PFD/MFD installed prior to the availability of the EA100 (I still depend on my AI for that). I also had infant mortality and the units were replaced quickly. I have never flown a G1000 or G500 unit but I really believe the compact scan on the Aspen is terrific. It's like there is no scan at all. All the information is right there, all the time. I've mentioned this to numerous others considering upgrading and a lot continue to say they want the bigger screens anyway. I don't get it. The biggest problem I have is with subscriptions. I have one for the Garmin, one for my EFB from Seattle Avionics,one for XM weather, and one for the Aspens. On top of that, I would need to buy two chart subscriptions if I wanted to use the charts on the Aspen as well as my EFB. Since the geo-ref on the Aspen has never worked even after I went through the verification process on the free trial, I passed that $200/yr up. It just keeps adding up and nobody seems to be interested in packaging with discounts for add-ons.