KSMooniac

No need to justify the cost of an analyzer for any airplane engine...once you fly with one and learn what it can tell you, you will consider it money very well spent! It is required equipment for me. Their fuzzy language about the EGT/Fuel Flow Curve worries me, though, as well as "complex mathematical analysis." I want an engine monitor to just show the temps and fuel flows and not try to calculate anything before presenting the data. Historically the engine monitor companies have not fully understood what the data really means, and thus they've had some errors in their handbooks/instructions. You might ask for some clarification about what it does in the background!

Parker, I don't know of any conversions...as Jim mentioned it would be quite pricey, and even if you were to salvage the center console bits and controls from a wrecked plane for free, it would require a lot of hours to install IMO. I lucked out getting into a J in the first place since I was shopping for an E or F...but my luck wasn't quite good enough to get into a '78+ to get the vernier controls and the better McCauley prop. Oh well.

Looks interesting! I'm using the EDM-700 with fuel flow and am intrigued at the new -730. Good to see Insight keeping pace with new developments too. Some of the stuff on the 2nd page looks silly to me...like they tried to put "extras" in there that don't really serve a purpose but oh well. Does the $2500 include the fuel flow hardware? How about fast response probes?

Was the solution to send your existing cable to McFarlane and have them "duplicate" it? I've read that is the way to go. I have a quadrant in my J and wish I could easily swap for vernier/push-pull cables! I hate the thing...it is a knee-knocker and doesn't allow for very precise adjustments. Not to mention it is probably a pound or two of extra weight.

I can't believe they optimized it for 11,500 feet...engine power drops off quite a bit up that high so I don't fly there unless there are very favorable winds or I need to get over some turbulence. I don't think I'm alone in that sentiment, either, for non-turbo Mooney pilots. Too bad they didn't pick 7 or 8k feet.

I watched two Mooney mechanics (from the factory) disassemble an Ovation for transport in a single weekend. They removed the tail and the wing and had a special trailer that held everything nicely. I'd say they did it in less than 20 hours total (two guys) but I'm sure they've done it a time or two before.

Congrats Alun! It is a huge accomplishment....now go get that ticket wet!

Seth, I might still be interested, but it would be easier on me if we moved it to Sunday somewhere. As it stands now, I still plan to head to the east coast early that week (from KS) and work my way down to FL for a wedding on the 18th. If the fly-in lunch moves to Sunday, I suppose I could leave on Saturday and start working that direction...otherwise I probably won't leave until Monday or Tuesday. If I'm the only one interested in Sunday then don't worry about me, though! I'm open to any location as I've never flown in that part of the country.

Darn! I was really looking forward to that weekend but I understand completely. I'm not sure I'll be able to get out there later in the year but I am still very interested in doing this.

My 201 with $105k hull and $1M/$100k insurance, hangared is $1300 thru AIG right now. That renewal was with 550 TT and ~300 in Mooneys, PPASEL/IA ratings only. I recommend you find a good broker and work thru one to get the best deal. Doing an IPC and some AOPASF courses got me ~$100 worth of discounts this renewal.

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Here is an interesting array of F-models on the market right now: http://www.aso.com/aircraft/113099/ http://www.aso.com/aircraft/116566/ http://www.aso.com/aircraft/121658/ http://www.aso.com/aircraft/119404/ Not too many attractive E's listed on ASO right now IMO. I was surprised to see a few F's with STEC autopilots. They were few and far between when I was searching. The F with the Rayjay system is one I would have jumped on 3 years ago...it has been listed for quite a while and I'm surprised it hasn't moved.

An STEC autopilot is likely the only modern one that you'll find added to a pre-J airframe. The pre-J's typically came with the Mooney "Positive Control" system, which is a full-time, vacuum powered wing-leveler with a disconnect button on the yoke that should be pressed when maneuvering. It is a simple system, and effective at what it does. Optional to that was the Brittain Accu-trak autopilot, which could add options like a heading bug or a CDI tracker to control the vacuum-based system to maintain heading or course. Brittain is still in business in Tulsa, but they're about the only ones that can competently service these old systems anymore. Some basic trouble-shooting can be done like leak checking in the field, but Brittain is the best at getting everything working as it should. On the Mooney email list this topic has come up time and again. Some feel it is a waste of time and money to either install a Brittain system (it is possible to cobble together enough used/overhauled components to do so) or try to get one functioning while others have had good luck with it. I think, but am not sure, that some of the mid-70's pre-J models might have had options for a Century autopilot but I could be mistaken. Century and later King autopilots were available on J and K airframes. I have no experience with these. The King autopilots are more capable and typically have flight director and HSI gyros...which add to the cost and complexity signficantly. Highly unlikely you'll find such a setup in a pre-J airframe. If you find a good candidate E with a Brittain autopilot, that is certainly better than nothing. The PC system is a nice safety enhancer for IFR work and can reduce XC workload a bit. Perhaps you'll find one with an INOP Brittain system, and you can use it as a negotiating point to beat on the price. If so, then you could invest some time into trouble-shooting the system under A&P supervision if you're so inclined, and replace the vacuum lines and fittings, etc. for little money. Worst case, perhaps you fly it to Tulsa and plan to spend a day or two letting them go through the system. Relative to the cost of a new STEC installation, it will be tiny, but then again it might not work as well or as long as a new STEC since you're still dealing with 40+ year old electronics. I would certainly put a little effort into one of these systems before throwing it out, but I like to tinker more than I like to write a big check. My J came with an STEC-30, including altitude hold and GPSS (GPS Steering). The -30 lives inside a turn coordinator, so it is perfect for a Mooney panel without extra real estate. The GPSS combined with WAAS is wonderful...it flies a complete flight plan including all turns, holds, procedure turns, etc. from the GPS box and leaves only the climbs/descents to be manually controlled. Installing one of these systems today would cost $10-12k, I think. STEC has the market cornered in the certified world, unfortunately. A similarly capably TruTrak autopilot for experimentals can be had for half that. GPS is a whole other topic...suffice it to say that the GNS-430(W) has become the defacto KX-170B of modern times and everyone expects to find one in a plane they want to buy today. The -480 (old Apollo CNX-80) is discontinued but still supported by Garmin and has a cult-like following. Most users love them and consider them better than the -430. Older Apollo boxes like the GX-50/55/60 series are losing support so I wouldn't pay extra for a plane with one of those. Older Garmins like the -300 are IFR enroute capable I believe, but again they're older and offer less than a 430. If I were shopping today, I'd try to discount for anything less than a 430 or 480. You'll just have to read up on any box when you find a plane that has something other than a 430 or 530 IMO.

I'll add some comments to Amelia's excellent reply...great advice about getting into a plane you can "comfortably" afford. IMO, you're already ahead of the game by looking for a Mooney as they are fast, simple, and efficient while being *relatively* easy on the budget for a traveling bird. The design and construction is wonderful in that there aren't really many costly "gotcha" items except perhaps the wet wing fuel tanks. This is especially true if you get a pre-J model with manual gear. (I'm a big fan of that system.) Compare the landing gear system with the rubber biscuit shock absorbers (well, I guess they don't absorb much) to an oleo strut like a Bonanza...the oleos are heavier and require more MX attention due to seals and air/oil filling, etc. The controls are nicer too with pushrods throughout so you don't need to worry about cables and pulleys and turnbuckles and such...just lubrication points on the Mooney. There aren't really any expensive nuiscance ADs either, unless you have an un-updated Hartzell prop. If you get one that has been flown and maintained regularly, you shouldn't be in for any big surprise bills. Getting a thorough pre-buy (or full-blown annual inspection) from a Mooney specialist is important in this regard before taking the plunge. Getting one with some modernized avionics could also pay off with the avoidance (hopefully) of troublesome displays or other behavior on vintage radios. Getting 16-18 NMPG sure is nice, especially when 100LL tops $5+ a gallon too. You'll find traveling by Mooney requires less gas money than driving or flying any other plane.

At 5'6" you might need to investigate the rudder pedal extensions (Mooney kit, I believe) to bring the pedals closer to the seat, and perhaps an extra seat cushion. I'm 6'1" and long-legged and fit *perfectly* in Mooneys, and even I sometimes wish the pedals were closer to the seat so I could move my seat aft a little more. Regardless, there are plenty of Mooney pilots of all sizes so I'm sure you can make it work! As you mentioned, once you get into a Mooney, you'll be finding yourself using it to go on longer and longer trips. Last month I flew to Vegas from Wichita even though we have a direct flight via airlines. Coming back I even did a non-stop leg in just under 6 hours, with 15 gallons of gas to spare! Last year I went to CA, and in July I'm headed to VA, FL and back. Having an autopilot and GPS removes much of the "work" from those long legs and makes long-distance XC a breeze. I also use mine for college football trips (Texas A&M!) and it is absolutely wonderful on those missions, even with 4 folks. With the speed and efficiency of a Mooney, there really isn't a cheaper way to *travel* compared to other GA planes, so don't think a Cherokee or other would save you money. Of all the items on your wish list, I still think finding an E or F with a modern autopilot will be the most difficult since it is such an expensive upgrade relative to the airframe cost. But, there are some out there! Even in this market, the really good planes are still selling, even at a premium price, so when you get serious about shopping you should have your financing lined up and be ready to pounce when you find one. If you're not a MAPA member, you should join to get access to the MAPA Log articles that include Jimmy Garrison's pricing/market reports as well as classifieds for MAPA members, which typically have the nicer Mooneys IMO. Also, if you're thinking $50k or whatever number, go ahead and get loan quotes up to $60k or $70k...you might be surprised to see the monthly payment deltas aren't horrible, and if you do like I did you might find that buying a $60k E for example vs. a $50k one might actually get you $70-$75k worth of equipment in reality since upgrades only return 50% on the dollar. Good luck!

I'd say sacrifice the speed mods first...at the end of the day an extra 5-10 knots isn't going to matter much on a trip time nearly as much as the safety benefits (ie workload reduction) of a GNS530W or 430W + an autopilot. I started out looking exactly like you are and thought I couldn't get into a J. I wanted an E/F with a modern instrument layout, IFR GPS, speed mods and hopefully an autopilot. My J became available locally and had all that and more, plus it had a great history and was a turn-key aircraft, so I stretched my budget to get it. (with a larger loan/longer payment period than I initially planned) Getting an E/F with any functional autopilot, much less something modern like an STEC, will be difficult in my opinion. First and foremost, though, is to buy the best airframe you can that has flown and been maintained regularly to a high standard. You can always add avionics and improve the cosmetics as time and budget allow, although it is still financially smarter to let the previous owner do those things. One other thing to keep in mind...the replacements to the GNS-500/400 series boxes are in development at Garmin right now, but the release date is unknown at this point. I would guess perhaps in the next 18-36 months...which means there will likely be some bargains to be had on the current generation. I wouldn't hesitate to install one then because IMO there are so many in the field that support should not be an issue for a long, long time. So, if you find one with everything but a 430 or 530, perhaps you can be patient and add it down the road...

Quote: Lood as well - modding a certain model Mooney to compare with a more effecient model but in the process spending more money than you would have when buying the better airplane in the first place?

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Weird mixup there! I didn't mean to offend with my "piggish" characterization... SagemGuy is correct that the G will still have the wonderful Mooney handling and feel better than any ol' Cessna or Piper. They don't have the acceleration and climb that the C does, nor the E/F/J models either. I bet the Power Flow exhaust does help tremendously, though, in that department.

I think Jimmy/AAA typically get examples from the upper end of the spectrum, or at the very least way above average. The opposite is true with Barron Thomas. I've been watching Mooney ads for almost 3 years now and wouldn't hesitate to look at AAA Mooneys, but I wouldn't even read an ad for Barron Thomas. I think it is a smart move to pay a little more up front and get a plane that has been maintained (and hopefully upgraded) vs. a cheaper one that will likely lead to a lot of catch-up MX on deferred items. JMHO

I've gotten a ride in a G long ago and thought it was fairly piggish compared the C, E, and F I had previously flown. I suppose I'd take one over a 172 or something similar, but I really wanted the 200 hp fuel injected engine when it came time to purchase. YMMV

Matt, that looks like a great value to me. I don't like the seat covers much, but there are tons worse out there. Nice panel, good times, and all the niceties of the '84J that I wish I had on my '77. Do you know any history on it, especially MX history and recent use (or non-use)? Any idea what the useful load is?

Quote: docket Help me out -- what's dogs knackers mean? No joy on that.

I think Chris's logic is quite sound... if you're at all tempted by the Aspen then you really ought to consider doing that now. Presuming you do not have GPSS right now and you have a mechanical HSI, then the cost delta is small to go for the Aspen since you would not have to purchase the GPSS module and you could sell the HSI. If you decide to move to the Aspen in a year or two, you'll have a ~$1500 GPSS module (guessing) leftover and an HSI that might be worth zero after everyone else has already upgraded and sold their HSIs. You could also potentially remove the entire vacuum system and recover some useful load, too. (I think you have an STEC a/p in the Eagle, which doesn't require a special AI, right?) The Aspen should be much more reliable than a 10 (?) year old mechaincal HSI going forward, too. Not to mention there would be a lot of duplicate labor to install the Aspen later... I agree about not fixing what ain't broke, but in this case the "while yer in there" argument makes a lot of sense IMO. I'd love to put an Aspen in but I have other higher priority upgrades in mind first with the airframe. I already have the STEC 30 with GPSS and dual WAAS, but would love to get an eHSI and ditch my vacuum system and those heavy gyros.

And there is no reason you couldn't do owner-assist annuals on a 231 either. I do that on my 201 for $500 + my labor and some part costs like filters, lube, oil etc. Last year I did pay $8k for a tank reseal, though, but I try to forget about writing that check.