Blue on Top
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Everything posted by Blue on Top
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@GeeBee Although I agree that your statement should be correct, especially if we are all cognizant 100% of the time, but we, as human pilots, are not. How many pilots gear up their retractable gear airplanes a year? Yes, a gear up is not fatal … except to the airplane and pilot's pride. How many people die in fatal stall/spin/spiral accidents a year? But can't everyone recognize an impending stall and stall perform a stall recovery if it goes that far? Yes, all of us have been trained to perform flawlessly … during training. There is definitely a reason these backup systems are required in Part 25. They also have the ultimate backup device - another pilot. Thank you for your observations. They are both wonderful and appreciated. Thanks!
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I will do so. Sooooooooooo much data; sooooooooo little time. I plan to be spending a lot more time at Wichita State's GoCreate facilities. That will get me closer ... physically.
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@Ibra Everyone is making good points. I especially like the fuel quantity and full flaps comments, but ALL points are very valid. My fuel story (and it is like hundreds of others). Bringing my "new to me" 1963 P172D (C175) home to Wichita from Atlanta. Nearly 4 hours into the flight (over an overcast, but with a C182 chase plane). It finally dawned on me after the second reminder from chase, that I was LOW on fuel. I remembered then that the endurance numbers in the POHs are NO RESERVE. Fortunately, I landed safely (probably not enough fuel to go-around), and then added more than the usable fuel …. the first time I fueled the airplane. Live and learn.
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@Hank Great observation! ASTM and FAA are looking into this to potentially modify the regulations/compliance to the regulations. The go-around is a major point of interest as is is causing a large percentage of the fatal stall/spin/spiral accidents. Thank you!
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@N201MKTurbo Thank you! Wonderful observation. You are correct. … I knew I wouldn't think of all of them If a pilot would takeoff with the flaps full (landing configuration), would the force be high? … to a new to this aircraft pilot?
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@Ibra Great observations! Thank you. 1. 100% agree. TMI --> overload --> ignoring warning 2. This is a fantastic observation. I agree 100%. Some things are binary, but your idea is great. 3. True, but people should be working on that … and learning from the past. What where the chain links that led to the accident? How can we break a link? We do a lot of this in flight test. 4. LOL (and I agree with you). On the other hand, if humans and electrons are both 95% reliable, the odds of them failing at the same point in time is really, really low. Fuel starvation is a good example (starvation is that engine quit, but there is still fuel on board … like in the other tank). Thank you again! Great observations.
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@carusoam I'm just glad that you didn't say, "Beeeep. Beep." because that would be the Road Runner passing you. . Thanks for the good feedback.
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@MooneyMitch Holy crap! I recognize that web address; it's in town! Thank you! The files look super interesting! For some reason box #3 is restricted … which are all the interviews with Beech, Cessna and Mooney. I didn't know that he headed up the Cessna 620 design. The 620 is basically a double 310 (hence the model number), basically a wood, 4-engine, King Air. WOW!!!
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PS. The Flying issue that @PT20J (Skip) posted the link is an AWESOME issue! Not only does it have the referenced article, but it also has the speed challenge between a new Mooney and a sports car. AND (starting on p.77) the coolest business jet ever made! Yes, I am very bias. That airplane (the Citation X prototype) was my baby. It's really, really fast, and it stalls better than a C172. Plus, I was privileged to get several hours in a T-38 flying formation with her.
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Thinking about some recent Facebook post, What are all y'all's thoughts on configuration warnings, for example: "Takeoff Warning" - flaps in the wrong position, speed brakes out, etc? "Landing Gear Warning" - Based on throttle position (some say manifold pressure, but it is really throttle position), flap position (full (landing) flaps without the gear down), etc? Different stall warning? Different landing gear warning? Etc? (you name it. Just getting some ideas to look at why (fatal) accidents happen … from a total aviation geek's perspective Pull!
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@cliffy (didn't mean to leave you hanging) The short bodies don't require them. This is not a tail volume issue but rather a stall speed, geometry and HP issue (long story). Mooney did a GREAT job implementing them as they vary force with empennage (trim) position.
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@MooneyMitch Is there a book or something? I would love to read it. Thanks!
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I hear they fly much better when Benjamin Franklin is the pilot.
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@steingar What are the titles? I want to buy them and have them personalized! In fact I'm in the process of organizing my library (all are in Excel, when purchased, read and if personalized). Life is all about people. I'm so excited! Now, if I can get @RogueOne to be not so confused, ... I'll post a picture of a minor Mooney variation of a very common design … as soon as I find it on the computer again. Y'all are awesome!!!
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@jetdriven What you have stated is true by definition, but … the courts don't interpret the law that way. Cessna's largest, lost lawsuit was on a seat sliding back after a very hard, bounced go-around attempt (stalled and crashed). The AD had been out for decades, etc, etc. The claimants said Cessna knew about the problem and did nothing about it. The jury believed them. Lawyers will find ways to convince juries that a small replaced part somewhere on the airplane had some little influence on the accident, and that is all it takes. Aviation needs tort reform and a true limit of liability (unless proven negligent). Would a case against GM even get to court if your engine quit in a '57 Vette?
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@Dream to fly Joe: Just call me "Bucko!"
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@Dream to fly Joe: Don't you dare back out of this. I want your input! If we can take an automobile engine with all the new technology, is mass produced at a MUCH lower cost and meets all the requirements at a similar (or lighter weight), why shouldn't we try? Please
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@Dream to fly Joe: I honestly and sincerely love what you're saying, but ... 1) We have been looking for this law for over 40 years. The GA Revitalization Act tried to do this … limiting the liability to 17 years. Well, it hasn't fared so well. If the owner changes one part, the 17 years starts again. No help. 2) We (ASTM) are trying hard to do this. Part 33 (engine certification) is really not that difficult, but refer back to 1) above. As a potential, though, if the engine were made "non-required for safe flight and landing" (i.e. as a genset for an electric airplane), it would no longer have to be certificated! Just trying to support your thoughts, -Ron
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I am honored beyond belief to be asked to be a small part of this awesome event! Kalynn and I are so looking forward to meeting all of you in person. Me, personally, I can't wait to take advantage of ALL the learning opportunities! Great job, Mooney Summit VIII!
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Accident in Johnson County Kansas Mooney M20 S
Blue on Top replied to Frank B.'s topic in Mooney Safety & Accident Discussion
All y'all: Great discussion! No matter what the end cause of this particular accident will be determined, we should all learn from all of the possibilities that have been presented. I believe that I have heard 3 of them: Trim in the incorrect (landing) position for takeoff. Flaps in the incorrect (landing) position for takeoff. Seat slid back on takeoff. Let's find solutions for ALL of these so that none of them can rear their ugly heads again. Thanks, Ron -
@EricJ Thanks for the great post (information). We can ALL learn from each other (and our experiences). I don't have enough time (or lives) to make all the mistakes myself.
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@Ibra Ummmmm … no , Oklahoma is flat … and typically little if any snow. Here is the image that came up when I Googled it. Skiing in Salt Lake City, Utah is much, much better. Greatest Snow on Earth (per their license plates).
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@Ibra If/when in the US, plan on spending a (business) day with the FAA. OMG, did I really say that? Anyhow, CAMI (Civil Aeromedical Institute) in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma has free one-day courses on a few topics. One of the courses is an altitude chamber. It is a morning of class and an afternoon chamber ride. Sea level (1,500', actually) to 5K and back to test your ears, and then SL to ~5K before a rapid decompression to 25K' … where people learn to put on their oxygen masks. Then it's back and forth with/without the mask to see YOUR personal hypoxia characteristics. I would recommend that you and your wife sit across from each other (you'll have your masks on/off at different times) so you can not only feel your personal characteristics but also observe those of you spouse. Well worth the price of admission.
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@PT20J I have heard 3-point is better than 4, but I have no hard data … and 5-point (4-point with crotch strap) is better than 3. The reason I was told is with 4-point, the shoulder harnesses have a tendency to pull up the waist belt and allow the occupant to slide underneath (submarine). From high-speed, slow-motion cameras, I am amazed at how much these belts stretch in a crash. Wichita State University (a local university) does seat testing … for a $$$$$$ price . From your experience (and everyone can chime in here), could a composite seat be made lighter than metal but with the same or lower (but certificable) decelerations? One of the large empty weight increases (read "useful load removers" when Cessna lines were restarted, was the 60+ lbs. in seats to bring them up to 26G standards (current regulations). If I wasn't a little attracted to shiny things that move and have a million ideas, I would love to learn all about how race cars do it, and how that information can be used to make airplanes safer. BTW, survivability numbers go way up if the airplane hits the ground with the wings level and relatively flat (nose down is bad). PS. None of current aircraft seats (other than Cirrus, kind of) has been made to protect the occupant from the vertical descent on a parachute. The regulation is no more than 1,500 lbs. into the spine (it doesn't say walk away unhurt).
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I know that Textron Aviation (Cessna) can't make enough C172s and Piper can't make enough trainers for the current market. Trainers that can be heavily abused are very. very much in demand right now.
