Blue on Top

@aviatoreb Replied to @MooneyMitch with: Our CA PG&E Company is a huge bad boy these days, what with starting all those fires.......it’s a love hate relationship with them..... current stock prices reflect that..... our CA government want to take them over!! With all that, makes me wonder if PG&E ship captain is even thinking about future needs !

@MooneyMitch Replied to @Hank with: Our CA PG&E Company is a huge bad boy these days, what with starting all those fires.......it’s a love hate relationship with them..... current stock prices reflect that..... our CA government want to take them over!! With all that, makes me wonder if PG&E ship captain is even thinking about future needs !

@Hank replied to @MooneyMitch with: Yeah, now imagine lines like that enroute to your destination, at a small town FBO, with longer charge times for larger aircraft batteries. Gives me the heebie-jeebies.

@MooneyMitch Replied to @Hank with: The future lies ahead....... technology will move forward, eliminating long time charging experiences, and eliminating the batteries that dictate that...... The vast Tesla, waiting to charge line I’ve witnessed at Madonna Inn ( San Luis Obispo) charging station is enough to frighten me away from such. I’m waiting so as not to wait in a charging line. And, what about that great sound from my gasoline Porsche Cayman flat 6 engine I get to hear with each acceleration? Would the engineers add a simulated audio sound in its place? But wait, Porsche has the electric car already! Oh my....... vroom, vroom!!

@aviatoreb Replied to @Hank with: I should ask some of the guys at work - funny enough I am in an ECE department and several of the profs are actually specialists in power grid, or actually the electric engineering part of it, but I bet they know. Good question!

@Hank Replied to @aviatoreb with: That will be a challenge in crowded, dense metro areas. But like you, there are three hydro facilities (that I know of) within a dozen miles of my home.

@aviatoreb Replied to @MooneyMitch with: I agree - I hope and expect someone is looking into that critical issue. What is the current power capacity of our electric system and can it absorb an all electric car fleet or otherwise what would it take to expand it to do so.

@Hank Replied to @MooneyMitch with: Your local power company runs your ship. Alabama Power runs mine here. As far as I know, there is no overarching structure, just a maze of power companies from large (American Electric Power) to small (electric coops that serve single communities).

@aviatoreb Replied to @Hank with: No I disagree entirely. You are citing relative to today's technology. I am confident that future technology will make electric easily produce good range. For cars and airplanes. 5 years? 10 years? 50 years? When is the issue. In my original post on this above I just made up a number and said 10 years. Hybrid electric is what I put forward as a plausible near term solution since that entirely mitigates the all electric battery range issue. And plug in electric is the best of that for flexibility. As for cars, I for one live 1.5 mi from work - I ride bike in the summer and I drive in the winter. All electric would be fine for my daily driver even with current limited range. But the cost benefit is not so much there yet and I maintain a gas car instead. An issue I stated above, but I will repeat, is perhaps one of the greatest airplane specific benefits of a hybrid electric system if I understand this right - we get potentially twin engine reliability from a single shaft/single prop system. If the gas engine gives out you still have the electric, and vice versa.

@MooneyMitch Said: I may be simply ignorant of the availability of current power excess, and/or planning for future demands...... I just don’t hear about it. Who or what is running the ship?

@Hank Replied to MooneyMitch with: They have the same problem as electric cars--limited range and stupid-long charge time. Even after the initially very limited number of charging stations is tackled, ever seen several planes in line to spend 5 minutes each pumping fuel? Want to be #4 in line for your turn at a one-hour charge cycle? Long XCs will go away, can't go further than you can RTB from, allowing for winds and reserve. Land, plug in and go home . . . . No thanks. No electric car, no electric plane. But electric RC planes are great, no greasy exhaust residue to clean off at the end of an afternoon's fun.

@aviatoreb replied: That is a very interesting comment Mitch. I don't know. Does anyone here know the actual total power draw of all the cars in the USA car fleet and how any kilowatts that draws? Is this an issue to the power grid or is it still relatively small and the current or slightly upgraded version fo the power grid might easily absorb it? I live in a part of the county that generates a lot of excess power and we ship it to the grid. Here in far upstate rural NY, we have a lot of hydro, a lot of wind, and also, not right here but within about 100 miles some nuke. (Oswego Nuke power). I live on a river and it has hydro 1 mile from my house downstream and also a few miles upstream. About 15 miles away there is a massive hydro power station that helps power an Alcoa and also GM plants. Plus the grid. And big wind farms here there and about this area. No lack of power here.

@MooneyMitch said: I agree with an electric Mooney. As with our growing fleet of Tesla’s and other electric autos, not to mention Counties such as San Luis Obispo, CA, that have set their sights on becoming all electronic within the next several years ( others to follow)........is the power infrastructure growing, or will it grow enough to support future all electric everything? Where and what will all that electricity be created from? Certainly no longer from atomic energy power plants, such as our local Diablo Canyon nuclear plant being decommissioned.

aviatoreb has posted this on a different topic, and I think it should be a new topic … and one I'm very interested in it. We'll see how this goes @aviatoreb Great post! I'll see if I can get the history from the other thread. Thanks! Let's turn this discussion properly fully modern. Forget avgas lycosaurus or conty. Forget turbine as they fuel specifics aren't great although they are fantastically reliable and high power/fast. Forget diesel since those were not meant to be turbo boosted for high altitude ops and they are complicated - even though in practice a Mercedes diesel ala Diamond is enticing.... Electric! I will buy a new airplane when I can buy an electric airplane that has the range, speed, and reliability I expect in an airplane worthy of 500-700k of my hard earned dollars. I think that will be in about 10 years when the technology finally catches up? (In current dollars by then). Actually I would be happy with hybrid electric. You know the deal - small gas engine of some kind runs a generator that charges a battery. For take off you let both the gas and the electric motor fuel the prop for high take off power. Then its all electric (charging) for cruise. You get the reliability plausibly of an electric system, with a gas engine as backup - or anyway this is a twin engine reliability in a single shaft. And plausibly fantastic range.... It could be very high power too. Let it be plug in electric so that for short flights you can run entirely on what charge you can draw out of the all - so for some of your flying its pennies per mile. Literally pennies per mile of "fuel" cost. Electric is coming - its just a matter of time. Here is a potential cape air electric air airplane. (Cape air flies around here - remember the tv show wings and their Cessna 402s? I have been on that very exact airplane - it has a sticker on it that says, as seen on wings). https://www.wbur.org/earthwhile/2019/08/08/cape-air-eviation-alice-electric-plane That's what I want.... but shaped like a Mooney.

@cliffy It didn't do what it was supposed to do. Yes, 18 years from the manufacture of that part. Lawyers found a way around it.

@1001001 New airplanes aren't sold to $100 hamburger, disposable income people. They are a business tools. Always have been; always will be. And for wealthy people to save time. Thanks for reinforcing my point about the price delta between old and new products. Ironically, your "bottom line" is what I have previously posted. I agree with you! But, you have me thinking more about what all y'all are talking about with the Marketing portion. Some companies are better at marketing to everyone (even though they can't afford a new airplane), but others only cater to ones that can afford the purchase. I can say from experience at Oshkosh, though, one never knows who can afford the purchase. Be nice to everyone!

@ArtVandelay Isn't this like saying there is a market for Accords, but it's being satisfied by an abundance of used Accords for $5K? People like new. Yes, there is a price difference, and the difference is larger in airplanes than in automobiles. But, I don't believe that comparison is apples to apples. In other words, I think we are comparing a used Acord to a new Lamborghini. Instead wouldn't it be better to compare a used J to a new, updated J? A $200K, 40 year old, refurbished J to a brand new, updated, safety-enhanced, $500K "J" would be more apples to apples? Many people buy (or lease) new cars every couple/few years because they like new … and don't want to mess with maintenance. Airplanes are no different.

That niche market is filled … by many (Cirrus, Cessna TTx, etc.). There is not room for another (or maybe even that one). Wrong aircraft. Quit building Lamborghinis! There's no money there. The automotive portion of Honda doesn't survive on the $BB they spend in motorsports (yes, literally, annually). They profit greatly on building millions of Civics, Accords, CR-Vs, Pilots, etc.. Many, many people want the "J" brought back, which is what the M10"J" was originally envisioned to be, ... but it wasn't. It was more of an Acclaim "J". In fact more avionics, leather, comfort, engine, structure, etc. than an Acclaim. That's not what people are asking for, and that is not what the "J" was originally. Like it's predecessors (Cs, Es, Fs and Gs that people still love today), the "J" was a simple, take me from A to B, go fast efficiently machine. A sporty Accord and not a Lamborghini. There's a market for a modern "J".

@Hyett6420 BAM!!! Nail on the head! Who wants a small percentage of a very, very small market? 100 airplanes a year is not survivable. Cirrus created their own small, niche market. Spend some time on social media and look at what people are flying, why they are flying and what their missions are. Design, build and produce a product that people want.

New investors wouldn't have invested if they didn't see a possible return. I know that they are working on a couple projects. Long term would have to be parts and service, in-sourcing, improvements/upgrades and then a totally new product. It also depends on what the Chinese sold them. The only TC/PC is the M20. I'm looking forward to great things.

@cliffy Paul Glenshaw (and another that I can't remember his name) just finished a 2-hour documentary on the Lafayette Escadrille. It's very good. I don't know how to find the 2-hour version, but a 20-minute version is on YouTube. One of the east coast aviation museums (Military Aviation Museum?) did a Zoom meeting with the two producers a couple weeks ago. It was very good, too.

@cliffy Yes, they did. Dick's version of the story is pretty funny.

@aviatoreb 1. Most likely yes. Prepping aluminum for bonding is something that Kerrville didn't want to take on. 2. Probably not faster; definitely smoother. Smoothness is not a large factor in drag as most of the surfaces are within a deep boundary layer (slower air). For example, if you fly your airplane with dust on it, it will come back with the same dust on it. Truly laminar flow wings are very rare … and all that means is laminar flow is carried further back on the airfoil. Reading my first article in "The Mooney Flyer", May 2020, may shed a little light on the subject. If not, keep asking questions; I'm always glad to discuss airplanes. solutions@blueontop.com 3. Laminar flow is very illusive. The original CJ wing was touted as "laminar" … until it was flown for a little while. FAA takeoff, climb and landing data had to be performed with the leading edge intentionally "dirty". We sprayed contact cement and then ashtray sand into it for the official FAA testing. The original laminar flow airfoils were really bad when they lost laminar flow. Ask Dick Rutan how a Vari-EZ flies in the rain. It doesn't. Newer NLF airfoils are designed to not be as bad when they lose laminar flow. In fact we typically, intentionally trip the flow to turbulent in CFD and in the wind tunnel to get real-world drag numbers. Again, "The Mooney Flyer" article will help explain a little more. 3 (continued). We spent a couple weeks smoothing/filling/sanding/repeating the original CJ prototype wing. We got a short portion of one flight to show some laminar flow. Realize that ALL airfoils have a little laminar flow on the leading edge … unless the leading edge is full of bugs. Any bug, step, divot, hump, etc. will make the flow turbulent in an expanding wedge behind that imperfection. 3 (addendum) Some very high performance sailplanes can achieve laminar flow over a significant portion of the chord, but their Reynolds numbers are very low (very short chord) and some even have leading edge wipers to clean the leading edge after takeoff (low altitudes where the bugs are). Hope this helps! -Ron Blum

Flap types … are just descriptive features that can be confusing at best. Any flap that is not a simple pivot has Fowler action (aft movement). Cessna flaps are considered to be "single-slotted", but they do have some fowler action. So do Mooney flaps that are more of a four-bar arrangement. A rose is a rose by any other name.

Personally, I am a big fan of bonded structure. It has worked for decades. As for smoothness, look at a Citation CJ3 wing. It is beautifully smooth. It is also all aluminum. It is rivetted while being held in place with a vacuum form. Is it laminar flow? Definitely not; there is a step at the aft end of the heated leading edge. For those that believe composites save 1000s of hours of time to not drill, deburr, countersink and rivet, please include the time, machining and tooling that it takes to make the parts, mold them to shape, cook them and prep them for bonding.