Pilot boy

Where is this from? These prices seem decent to me.

On the power off 180s, give me more detail, when are you putting in partial and then full flaps? I have to be very careful with flap use as I’ll come up short if I put them in too soon. Are you turning immediately from downwind to base? How high and what speed over the end of the runway? What touchdown point were you using? For the short field landings with the ability to use throttle, full flaps is easy but I seem to just float right by my drop point on the power offs. I may be coming in too fast on final for the power off 180 as I’m trying to maintain best glide of around 105 mph until I’m pretty close to the runway, 95 mph over the lights with no flaps I can hit the touchdown markers every time. Though I’m now finding out the DPE doesn’t want to test in the Mooney as I have no copilot brakes...so I might be going back to the 172 anyway.....

I understand exactly what you’re saying and I probably wouldn’t recommend no flaps in real life emergency also, due to the higher forward speed but the purpose right now is to pass the power off 180 for commercial and for some reason it’s just easier for me to not use any flaps to nail the exact spot. I keep floating too easily, too much with full flaps, could probably get by with half flaps but the no flap way is just more accurate with the 200 ft requirements for the exam. I will go out in a week or two and try some higher approaches with flaps to see though, maybe I can get a method down that uses flaps also. Part of the problem for practice has been weight solo vs dual with the examiner but I finally have a good ballast solution so it’s easy to check different configurations and settings.

I took this advice to heart and found an E with STEC 30 and ALT hold. Now in every 2 hours plus work multi state trip I thank gsxrpilot

So I’m a new M20E owner having just bought it this summer. That said, I’ve done about 260+ landings in over 110 hrs (oh wait that was another forum question on here).....so I’m a new hand getting experience fast. I’m basically check ride ready for the commercial check ride. The reason I say that is due to a lot of experimentation with the flap settings to get the accuracy landings down like the short field (-0, +100 ft) and power off 180s(-0, +200 ft) It’s great for learning what your Mooney can really do. Since mine is a short body also I think flight characteristics will be the same. As a caveat I also fly in the upper Midwest and often have winds of 15G25 knots. Overall I really prefer 2 pumps or 15 degrees of flaps on the E model. I found this is gentler on the landing (greasers) but not as much float. You can get good landings with full flaps but I don’t think it’s quite as easy and I don’t need to stop in 1500 ft. The biggest downside I found to full flaps was that in the crosswinds it keeps me in that floating flare danger zone for a little long and then you have to be cross controlling for the crosswind and even so, in a good crosswind you could drift toward one side if the runway as you lose speed and controls lose their effectiveness. So generally I do all landings half flaps just for preference. That said for the commercial short field I have to use full flaps and essentially buzz the stall horn at touchdown and it’s entirely possible (especially in calm winds) to land precisely on a centerline stripe you select. So with calmer winds or direct headwinds I can come on final at 80 mph, 75 over the REILs and plant it at the 2nd stripe. I don’t recommend this in strong winds but the buzzer in the E doesn’t go off until the bottom of the white arc. Kinda off topic but it is what it is... Now, the power off 180 in the E was quite challenging for me to get down. I kept floating or coming up short. The best advice I received on this forum was to play with the ground effect to plant it on the right spot. So I was practicing the power offs with the “use flaps as needed” approach they teach you for the Cessna drivers doing their p off 180s. In the Mooney this is more tricky. I found if I maintained best glide of 105 mph or so and then attempted to add flaps right inside the 100 mph white arc I would usually float right past the touchdown point of the big white touchdown bars (200 ft). Especially with full flaps I would float a long ways. So for the power off 180 I come in low and fast over the threshold about 50 ft and 95 mph over the REILs, get into ground effect quickly so you don’t stall and just hold the flare until the spot you want to touch down comes up. No flaps. It works amazingly well. I really hesitate to do even 10 degrees of flaps for the power off 180. So what I noticed was just that full flaps with speed and you’ll float quite a ways, no flaps and you just land at what feels a pretty high speed. Like I said bit off topic but the power off 180 really showed the effects of flap settings.

From what I’m reading in the link both the commercial and even the CFI (from the right seat) ticket would be okay to do without brakes on the copilot side. However I’ve read in some other inter web places that the DPE could refuse if they don’t feel comfortable with it as a matter of safety. I will find out if this DPE is refusing due to lack of knowledge or a safety concern. It may not be worth the battle we shall see. The school has good 172s, I’d just have to back to one and learn the maneuver settings.

My instructor only spoke to one DPE we both know...I am getting different answers from different instructors now On this issue and am going to ask another DPE I know or possibly even the FSDO. I am concerned about the cfi ride in the right seat having no brakes but if I can get commercial done at least that would be better. I’ll go take a look at that link.

Were your practicing the impossible turn at all? I’d like to practice some of those to simulate losing the engine like at 800 ft etc.

I’ve been working on my commercial in the M20E and the accuracy landings - especially the power off 180 have required some practice. I also did transition training....and I’m commercial check ride ready now. I also use the plane for work x countries. I’m around 110 hrs since July and 260+ landings.

I was informed that I will most likely not be able to do the commercial check ride in my Mooney M20E as I have no copilot brakes...even though I’ll be in the pilots seat. Does anyone have the copilot brake kit for a 64 M20 E? Or good shops to get pricing on it from. I checked out one of the major ones and I’m getting quite an expensive quote for the install. $5k in parts alone. Any suggestions welcome. I may just go rent a 172 to finish it out and then do the CFI check ride in the Cessna also. Unfortunately I’m check ride ready in the M20E so I’m just seeing if there are some more cost effective alternatives out there.

I have been working on my accuracy landings in my 1964 M20E lately and practice makes perfect. As carusoam mentioned we generally focus on speed and that makes all the difference. With full flaps I do tend to come down more firmly than with half (2 pump) flaps. I would focus on your speed and weight of the plane. Practicing for short field landings to commercial standards I have added ballast weight to the plane to always be at or near full gross. Otherwise the plane will act differently if I’m lighter etc. I come in at 80 mph in low wind conditions, then lower it to 75 mph as I get over the runway, pull power right past the numbers and I can hit first centerline stripe. I usually add a little power to make it to 2nd stripe as that’s my aiming point for commercial PTS. I’m surprised by your comment that the stall happens with no warnings...you should be hearing the stall horn around 68 mph. (10 mph above Vso in the E.). Again, you should land with full flaps for a short field but if you want a gentler landing 2 pumps works better to make it not as abrupt of a drop. However that’s not really the proper procedure as others have mentioned. if you have room....I come in quite low toward the runway threshold...probably less than 50 ft. This shortens the ground effect and flare. one last caution, be careful departing that short field grass strip in summer with only 2100ft. If you increase the weight at all or to a high temp high DA day you might have trouble departing a 2000 ft strip. I personally won’t use less than 3000 if within 100 lbs of full gross above 90 degrees. I did a takeoff this summer on asphalt that took about 1900 ft when I was close to max gross and 95 out. The strip was 3000 ft fortunately. It looked a bit close toward the end....

Be very careful with the POH numbers for DA. I just bought an E this summer and a friend and I were at 1200 ft MSL at full gross in the E basically (maybe 60 lbs under) just he and I but we’re both 230 lbs +. At 95 degrees out DA of about 4000 ft it took me nearly 2000 ft to take off. I’d say it took 1700 ft total probably, much higher than book estimate. It seemed risky on a 2900 ft strip. I’m very glad I didn’t try the 2000 ft strip nearby that day. So definitely take weight out and use a long strip until you know exactly how your plane performs in real life. There is a video on YouTube of a Mooney unable to climb in a small Oregon strip and plows into an embankment. Don’t trust the POH. I won’t use anything less than 2900 ft now in the summer around Midwest.

I own an E and I’d disagree with saying it has no leg room. It sounds like it’s much bette than the D? I am about 6 ft tall and I have to be at the 3rd notch from front just to have full control of the pedals and brakes so the person behind me has some decent legroom. Certainly enough for 3 adults.

Where is the shirt from?

I second this with my E. It takes off like a freaking rocket almost straight up when I’m solo. I can pull it back in cruise to 4.8 GPH if I inky want to do 110 knots but my numbers match the above when in cruise. It’s not a fuel hog. The engine overhaul cost is the biggest concern, it will be slightly more...but more hp always better. Only downside to the E engine is that it can be a little tough to start when it’s real hot out or the engine is real warm but you get used to the special techniques pretty fast (you can google Mooney M20E hot starts or flooded starts to get an idea) and then it’s not as big an issue. I still occasionally have a little trouble with it but not often and at most I have to sit there for a couple minutes before trying again

I used Avemco and I think I was at like $2300 starting out. Helps to have AOPA membership I think. I only had about 180 hrs in fixed wing with my instrument. It dropped again at either 30 or 50 hrs of time. The told me it will drop again when I hit 125 hrs which will be in like a month at my pace. Avionics are NOT cheap. I’m looking at several options for the old shotgun panel and I can’t get it down below $10k very easily.

I have a 1964 M20E and as far as price, power, and speed I’d definitely recommend it. I cruise at 140 to 150 knots and usually with any sort of tailwind my groundspeed is 170 knots or greater most of the time. (Saw 205 knots 2 weeks ago but that was an unusual day). However, the back seat is small and fairly narrow. You can fit 3 adults pretty easily but with useful load in my plane Iof 992 lbs etc I probably wouldn’t try 4 very often. Also, We have 1.5 yr old and plans for 2nd baby in near future...Wife and I are planning to upgrade to a larger plane most likely when the kid gets older into the teen years. I’d say it’s very iffy with your mission. I fly country solo for work via multiple states so it works well but when the kids get to big and heavy it wont. You seem much closer to that stage. Weight will probably be little bit of an issue with 4 plus your bags. The C and E do have better price point (I shopped all last year and found my plane just this past July) than F and G. I wanted and F or G but this E turned up near home and had great paint, autopilot (critical I’d add that to must have list if you do any sort of longer trips, Garmin 430Waas, fuel bladders, single piece windshield and the modified lower cowling among other mods. So it was just too good to pass up. I love it. Handling is great in the Mooney E model, flies great. I think the landing float is largely myth personally. I’m working on my commercial pilot accuracy landings in it and it’s not terribly hard. Yes it is a little more difficult than a Cessna probably for the accuracy standards Of commercial checkride but floating at least the older vintage C or E off a runway I’m not even sure how you do that. The big thing is just manage the speed properly on final like everyone says so don’t land at 100 mph or you’ll float a little. C model is same as E just the carbureted version which is probably easier to start than my E once it’s not lol.

I looked throughout the E POH and it basically says 90 for base, 80 mph for final, then 10 mph above Vso for the final approach and flare. Vso is 57 mph in the 64 E with zero bank. I’m also always well aware of stall speeds and AoA in bank angles, no worries. I don’t do more than 30 or 40 in the pattern. 40 degree bank stall speed in the E with zero flaps is 78 mph. 30 Degree bank stall speed is just under 74 mph. Any flaps and it is lower stall speed of course.

I did multiple short field and power off 180s a few days ago. It seems for the short field in non gusty conditions about 75 mph at 50 ft, pull power just beyond the numbers around 1st/2nd stripe works well to hit the 120 ft of the 3rd runway stripe. This is in calm winds like 7 knots. A little less speed than what I’d been doing before. 80 mph works too if you’re near max gross but you’d an easily overshoot. The 180 is mostly a timing game but you want to be faster like 95/100mph as you arrive over the runway if you want to make it to the 200 ft touchdown bars. Depends a lot on height AGL at that point if you need flaps or not.

Okay my E 1964 manual just says 90 mph on base, 80 mph on final descent. Final approach is 10mph above stall speed. At full gross with zero bank and full flaps the Vso stall speed is only 57 mph...if winds aren't bad I may start shooting for about 70-75 mph over the fence. I know the buzzer doesnt go off in my E until usually around 68 to 70 mph when doing power off stalls.

For those looking through this thread in the future, a second thread on the forum from a few years back was also extremely helpful for me. Going out today to practice some of these techniques.

I’m curious which POH recommends no turns under 90 without flaps? What year and model?

Hi all, Well I’m getting close to 100 hrs in my new to me 1964 M20E. I’m working on my commercial check ride prep in it. So far the maneuvers are all going well and no problem except my accuracy landings. Don’t get me wrong they aren’t bad...but it is just hard to nail the 100 ft and 200 ft limits every time. I’m looking for tips and tricks especially for the power off 180. The short field landings I can usually hit. Biggest problem just seems to be that it’s an unpredictable float based on weight (solo vs dual), wind, etc that I can get off by one stripe or half a stripe etc. I was also really taught not to force the landings much due to the low prop clearance in the E so I’m pretty careful with that. In a Cessna I could force it a bit more. Especially useful would be speeds near the threshold. I’m usually coming in at about 75 to 80 mph when I’m dual with the instructor over the end of the runway. This usually results in me hitting the 2nd or 3rd stripe on the short field landing. The p off 180 I seem to float too much (too high and too fast) but it’s just hard to hit that 200 ft Mark reliably. im debating trying to do a ton of landings this week and if I can’t get it down, to just switch to a 172 for the check ride as I think it would be a piece of cake comparatively.

I've got my E weight and balance fully loaded into foreflight (manually from my paper w and b POH) so calculating different setups is very easy. I tried flying yesterday with baggage in the back and it certainly helped the plane trim out easily. (Normally it's harder for me to control trim when I'm by myself) and I probably did gain a few knots. Not sure since I had a tail wind, but i was averaging about 155 knots at 8500 and with the mixture leaned to 8.4 gph. 50 LOP or so.