Pre purchase inspection Germany

[Wingover]

Hello,

I was looking at a Mooney for sale in Germany and spoke with ACG Air-Craft GmbH to have them inspect the plane.  They said that they only do that at their facility but the owner of the plane doesn't want to fly there.  He is happy with them or any other mechanic come and inspect the plane where it is.

Any suggestions, comments?  Is is not normal to fly the plane to the mechanic for inspection?  Is this a "red flag" not to buy?

[Fly Boomer]

14 hours ago, Wingover said:

Any suggestions, comments?  Is is not normal to fly the plane to the mechanic for inspection?  Is this a "red flag" not to buy?

Unless you have a personal relationship with a mechanic, it is usually very difficult to persuade anyone to come to your hangar (or the seller's hangar).  Here, there may be a larger number of independent mechanics, and those people sometimes will come if suitably incented.  A company or Service Center is unlikely to agree to it, because they already have to turn away business, they want all their tools at hand, they have unlimited shop air, toilets are handy, etc.  It sounds like an inexperienced seller and, while I understand how they feel, it is usually not practical.  I walked away from a gorgeous airplane because the seller insisted that the pre-buy be close enough that he could fly the airplane to the pre-buy mechanic, and be back home by sunset of the same day.  The message that sends is "I do not want anyone to take a close look at my airplane".  It suggests that there is something to hide.

[Wingover]

I don't think he is "inexperienced" because he is the director of an aero club and has another plane for sale.  I have a feeling you are right, he does't want a good inspection done.  The Mooney service center is very close to him so it is not a big deal to fly there.

[mooney_flyer]

When I bought my bird I looked at two planes in total. Both went through PBI by ACG. The first owner flew his plane from somewhere around Prague to EDFQ, the other one from LFFK which is 466NM straight! He even did that twice because short before the first landing fog set in.

I paid the flights, anyway.

So if your seller isn’t willing to bring the plane there - this doesn’t seem to be standard procedure, to say the least.

BTW, ACG is a great shop, I’m working with them for almost two years now and I couldn’t be happier.

[Fritz1]

two sides to the story, I once had a plane to come to my location with the provision that I either buy it or the owner gets $1,000 and is on his merry way, I did not buy it. When I purchased my Bravo 6 years ago I did detailed logbook analysis on 6 planes, test flew one, had my A&P IA do a full blown inspection on one plane, did not buy it, full blown inspection on second plane which I bought and A&P IA took plane to his location and repaired it for 6 weeks. Both inspections were in Texas, A&P IA is in Texas, I am in Virginia, flew to Texas after the second inspection looked good negotiated price and purchased the plane. A pre-purchase inspection should be at least as thorough as an annual, done so that A&P IA fixes known squaks after plane is purchased and then signs annual. Almost anything is repairable besides some forms of ugly corrosion which are not economically repairable. Buyer beware. So either inspect airplane where is or offer reasonable amount to make the airplane appear. Put yourself in the sellers shoes sitting on ramp with airplane taken apart with buyer in a very strong position to negotiate price. What would you do if you were selling the airplane?

[Ibra]

It's normal to fly the aircraft for pre-buy inspection and it's for everyone interests,

However, I think some details has to be ironed and agreed in advance of pre-buy, who pays for what?

Usually seller is responsible for airworthiness items and buyer for pre-buy or annual, the buyer can walk away for any reason until pre-buy is completed and accepted, however, he put deposit to cover pre-buy inspection fees if deal falls through (if inspector is not paid, the aircraft is stuck in some hangar)

The seller has to agree on inspection and repair of any airworthiness items (AD not SB) and can have these done by his mechanic...if there is a disagreement on airworthiness items or anything else everyone's walk away, deal terminates and any deposit - inspection fee is refunded to the buyer. 

Maybe explaining some of these mechanics, no pun intended, helps...

Good luck !

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Ibra

[Fly Boomer]

6 minutes ago, Ibra said:

It's normal to fly the aircraft for pre-buy inspection and it's for everyone interests,

However, I think some details has to be ironed and agreed in advance of pre-buy, who pays for what?

Usually seller is responsible for airworthiness items and buyer for pre-buy or annual, the buyer can walk away for any reason until pre-buy is completed and accepted, however, he put deposit to cover pre-buy inspection fees if deal falls through (if inspector is not paid, the aircraft is stuck in some hangar)

The seller has to agree on inspection and repair of any airworthiness items (AD not SB) and can have these done by his mechanic...if there is a disagreement on airworthiness items or anything else everyone's walk away, deal terminates and any deposit - inspection fee is refunded to the buyer. 

Maybe explaining some of these mechanics, no pun intended, helps...

Good luck !

 

 

 

Great summary!  That's about as succinct a write-up as I have seen.

[Ibra]

On 9/9/2023 at 9:24 AM, Wingover said:

I don't think he is "inexperienced" because he is the director of an aero club and has another plane for sale.

I expect a private seller, aka someone who owns an aircraft, pays for hangar, insurance and airworthiness while not getting any happiness out of it, will accept to play by the book when it comes to PPI (motivated seller with lot of incentives to sell) 

The financial incentives for an "aeroclub president" (while being "very experienced") are slightly different: likely there is no timelines, no financial skin in the game, zero carry cost and his motivation to sell will be hard to pinpoint...try to buy from someone who did not want to sell...who pretends that he is selling: angry request from partner, aeorclub members vote...good luck 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Ibra

[Fix]

On 9/28/2023 at 10:39 PM, Ibra said:

It's normal to fly the aircraft for pre-buy inspection and it's for everyone interests,

However, I think some details has to be ironed and agreed in advance of pre-buy, who pays for what?

Usually seller is responsible for airworthiness items and buyer for pre-buy or annual, the buyer can walk away for any reason until pre-buy is completed and accepted, however, he put deposit to cover pre-buy inspection fees if deal falls through (if inspector is not paid, the aircraft is stuck in some hangar)

The seller has to agree on inspection and repair of any airworthiness items (AD not SB) and can have these done by his mechanic...if there is a disagreement on airworthiness items or anything else everyone's walk away, deal terminates and any deposit - inspection fee is refunded to the buyer. 

Maybe explaining some of these mechanics, no pun intended, helps...

Good luck !

 

 

 

This more or less what I did when I bought and sold my Arrow.

Now I'm in the market again, and there are many sellers that don't know how to sell an aircraft.
I get the feeling that they think it's like buying an car or something.

I had one seller and broker that got pissed when I asked for the logbooks, and wondered why I did want them...
They were missing from 1982 - 2008... 

But then again, there are some serious sellers out there that do what it actually takes to get an aircraft sold.
One of them  is willing to fly 6h to have it pre-buyed at maintenance firm I requested.

Also recommend that it's stated in sales agreement who pays for what etc.

 

Edited November 2, 2023 by Fix