COVID-19 flight reviews and IPC

[takair]

28 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

The special rule was formally published this morning.

For anyone interested, I did an analysis of its applicability to light GA on my Facebook page.

Thanks. Good summary on Facebook and matches my interpretation.  The thing that bothers me....for instrument currency....it does not really allow for a flight purely to maintain currency....does it?  Assume someone is on the cusp of currency and wants to do three approaches.  Do they have to be done on flights achieving one of the objectives, or can a dedicated flight be done in support of a future flight in support of the objective?  What if that flight never happens?  In other words, there is a risk that someone ran out there technical flight reviews date today, but they don’t have a technical flight that meets the objectives until June.  They are legal for the June flight, but not any flights in the interim that support proficiency?  Maybe I need to read another time...

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, takair said:

Thanks. Good summary on Facebook and matches my interpretation.  The thing that bothers me....for instrument currency....it does not really allow for a flight purely to maintain currency....does it?  Assume someone is on the cusp of currency and wants to do three approaches.  Do they have to be done on flights achieving one of the objectives, or can a dedicated flight be done in support of a future flight in support of the objective?  What if that flight never happens?  In other words, there is a risk that someone ran out there technical flight reviews date today, but they don’t have a technical flight that meets the objectives until June.  They are legal for the June flight, but not any flights in the interim that support proficiency?  Maybe I need to read another time...

That is a great question. But let's clarify what you are asking.  Are you saying that at the time of that proposed currency flight you are (1) not instrument current  without the special rule and (2) not flight review current without the special rule?  The reason I included that instrument currency scenario in that post was to show how complex it can be. It was easy to come up with that one. But notice, even in that one, the pilot can do two approaches in a BATD and be fully instrument current under the regular rules in about a half hour. Do you have one we can all take a look at?

"Cusp of currency" tells me you are instrument current. If you are flight review current without the rule, no problem. Go up on a nice day with enough actual to log the approaches yo need. 

 

[takair]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

That is a great question. But let's clarify what you are asking.  Are you saying that at the time of that proposed currency flight you are (1) not instrument current  without the special rule and (2) not flight review current without the special rule?  The reason I included that instrument currency scenario in that post was to show how complex it can be. It was easy to come up with that one. But notice, even in that one, the pilot can do two approaches in a BATD and be fully instrument current under the regular rules in about a half hour. Do you have one we can all take a look at?

"Cusp of currency" tells me you are instrument current. If you are flight review current without the rule, no problem. Go up on a nice day with enough actual to log the approaches yo need. 

 

Really two questions.  I have been staying current as you suggested, so I’m good right now.  Going to contact nearby school about using sim. for future.  Never had the need before....would just trade off some approaches under the hood.  

The flight reviews impact two of my regular “students”. Both ran out April 31.  If I read this right unless used for the specific reasons listed, they are expired.  If they suddenly need to fly for those reasons, they can do that......however, if they simply want to fly to remain proficient, they can not?  Alternately, I guess it’s wear a mask and we both have to hope that we are clean of the rona.

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, takair said:

Really two questions.  I have been staying current as you suggested, so I’m good right now.  Going to contact nearby school about using sim. for future.  Never had the need before....would just trade off some approaches under the hood.  

The flight reviews impact two of my regular “students”. Both ran out April 31.  If I read this right unless used for the specific reasons listed, they are expired.  If they suddenly need to fly for those reasons, they can do that......however, if they simply want to fly to remain proficient, they can not?  Alternately, I guess it’s wear a mask and we both have to hope that we are clean of the rona.

The flight review impacts me too. Mine expires end of this month. Yes, unless it is for one of the approved missions, I will not be able to fly.

[takair]

30 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

The flight review impacts me too. Mine expires end of this month. Yes, unless it is for one of the approved missions, I will not be able to fly.

Thanks for clarifying.  Now we need some kind of plexi cabin splitter.

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

The flight review impacts me too. Mine expires end of this month. Yes, unless it is for one of the approved missions, I will not be able to fly.

Mark, you are a CFI, are you not? if so, when did you renew your CFI? If within the last 2 years, that date can be used for wings credits for activity A071024-01, which is enough for your flight review..

 

[takair]

16 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Mark, you are a CFI, are you not? if so, when did you renew your CFI? If within the last 2 years, that date can be used for wings credits for activity A071024-01, which is enough for your flight review..

 

Mike...CFI as well...this interests me.  I thought that the CFI renewal (FIRC in my case), only substitutes for the ground portion of the flight review?

[mike_elliott]

Basic WINGS

1 Credit for Basic Flight Topic 1

1 Credit for Basic Flight Topic 2

1 Credit for Basic Flight Topic 3

1 Credit for Basic Knowledge Topic 1

1 Credit for Basic Knowledge Topic 2

1 Credit for Basic Knowledge Topic 3

Advanced WINGS

1 Credit for Advanced Flight Topic 1

2 Credits for Advanced Flight Topic 2

1 Credit for Advanced Knowledge Topic 1

2 Credits for Advanced Knowledge Topic 2

Master WINGS

1 Credit for Master Flight Topic 1

2 Credits for Master Flight Topic 2

1 Credit for Master Knowledge Topic 1

2 Credits for Master Knowledge Topic 2

 

Rob, send me a copy of your CFI cert, your faasafety.gov email address and Ill get you this credit

 

Mike Elliott

FAAsteam lead rep

mike at aviating.com

 

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, takair said:

Mike...CFI as well...this interests me.  I thought that the CFI renewal (FIRC in my case), only substitutes for the ground portion of the flight review?

You are correct.  Only the ground portion unless you take a practical test.  From the Wings Program activity A071024-01:

"Satisfactory completion of a Practical Test for the initial issuance, renewal or reinstatement of a Flight Instructor Certificate meets all the requirements for the Master Level of the WINGS - Pilot Proficiency Program, the Advanced Level of WINGS, and the Basic Level, if, and this is a big "if", the applicant demonstrates takeoffs and landings during the Practical Test as sole manipulator of the controls. Note that a CFI Renewal based on other than a Practical Test does not qualify."

Even though I qualify for CFI renewal by giving the required number of Wings trainings, I also do the Gleim FIRC (No way you can do it in 16 hours.  Many more), and the last time I took it this is what they credited me with.:

[midlifeflyer]

11 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Mark, you are a CFI, are you not? if so, when did you renew your CFI? If within the last 2 years, that date can be used for wings credits for activity A071024-01, which is enough for your flight review..

 

Thanks but doesn't  work, Mike. I know the program well and have given seminars on it. You need both knowkedge  and flight credits for Wings.  I have more than enough ground credits even without my CFI renewal, and a FIRC CFI renewal does not take care of the Wings in-flight requirements.

I am literally one flight credit short. Basically a turn or two around the pattern with a CFI will  take care of it.

Edit: @mike_elliott, if you look A071024-01, you will see it is

Initial Certification - Flight Instructor (Includes Renewal or Reinstatement by practical test) [my emphasis]

That would count as a FR even without Wings.

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by midlifeflyer

[mike_elliott]

12 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Thanks but doesn't  work, Mike. I know the program well and have given seminars on it. You need both knowkedge  and flight credits for Wings.  I have more than enough ground credits even without my CFI renewal, and a FIRC CFI renewal does not take care of the Wings in-flight requirements.

I am literally one flight credit short. Basically a turn or two around the pattern with a CFI will  take care of it.

Edit: @mike_elliott, if you look A071024-01, you will see it is

Initial Certification - Flight Instructor (Includes Renewal or Reinstatement by practical test) [my emphasis]

That would count as a FR even without Wings.

 

I stand corrected, I see they have tightened this up  added the verbage now as Don pointed out you have to demonstrate TO and Landings by practical test for renewals also the way it is now worded. I guess this makes sense, as a lot of our education now is taught by those that cant walk the walk in all arena's. At one time, the credits were only available for initial certification, which counted as a FR anyway.  This begs the question who would take a practical test for renewal?

[takair]

14 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

I stand corrected, I see they have tightened this up  added the verbage now as Don pointed out you have to demonstrate TO and Landings by practical test for renewals also the way it is now worded. I guess this makes sense, as a lot of our education now is taught by those that cant walk the walk in all arena's. At one time, the credits were only available for initial certification, which counted as a FR anyway.  This begs the question who would take a practical test for renewal?

I think those that let their CFI lapse...likely by accident.   
 

Mike, Mark, Don.....thanks for all the help and input.  Very helpful, as always.  Mike, thanks for the offer to input my info...in light of the fact that it won’t provide for FR renewal, probably not worth it?
 

 In the big scheme of things, hopefully this is a short term problem.  I know there are still people flying together, I just haven’t gotten up the nerve or the need.  I will likely have to do at least the one FR for friend soon.  Will just have to be cautious.  

[mike_elliott]

Yes the practical is required for reinstatement but not for renewal. On another note, if you have flown with a CFI within the last year

and have done any of the flight activities required by a wings phase, we could count those upon his certification of this.

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, mike_elliott said:

Yes the practical is required for reinstatement but not for renewal. On another note, if you have flown with a CFI within the last year

and have done any of the flight activities required by a wings phase, we could count those upon his certification of this.

You are correct about this. The CFI who verifies the credits does not have to be the CFI who gave the instruction. All we need to do is verify from the logbook that the tasks were accomplished - as you know, not just for CFIs but for any pilot. 

There is a small catch however. It wasn't this explicit with the PTS but the rewrite of tasks over the past year or two have added ACS-based completion standards to most flight activities.

Successful completion of this WINGS Activity will ensure the airman possesses the knowledge, ability to manage risks, and skills consistent in the performance of [the included tasks]  to the ACS completion standards...for the privileges of the certificate or rating being exercised in order to act as Pilot-in- command (PIC).

Read strictly, that's a little more difficult to verify from a typical logbook entry. I've done it for people I know or whom I have flown with at other times, but I'm not sure I would assume ACS level performance with a complete stranger without some independent verification from the pilot's instructor. 

If you are thinking, "Gawd, they've made the program even worse!" it's better than it was a year or so ago.  I was looking for an activity and I found this long convoluted description and checklists that would make both pilot and instructor avoid the program like the plague  much worse than "we want it done to ACS standards." We had a visit from one of the mukity-mucks in the national program and I was one of the people asked to meet with him. I told him exactly what I thought - the main reason Wings wasn't use more was that it was to complicated and they somehow managed to increase the intimidation factor exponentially. I probably wasn't the only one and there was a change for the better.

[mike_elliott]

11 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

You are correct about this. The CFI who verifies the credits does not have to be the CFI who gave the instruction. All we need to do is verify from the logbook that the tasks were accomplished - as you know, not just for CFIs but for any pilot. 

There is a small catch however. It wasn't this explicit with the PTS but the rewrite of tasks over the past year or two have added ACS-based completion standards to most flight activities.

Successful completion of this WINGS Activity will ensure the airman possesses the knowledge, ability to manage risks, and skills consistent in the performance of [the included tasks]  to the ACS completion standards...for the privileges of the certificate or rating being exercised in order to act as Pilot-in- command (PIC).

Read strictly, that's a little more difficult to verify from a typical logbook entry. I've done it for people I know or whom I have flown with at other times, but I'm not sure I would assume ACS level performance with a complete stranger without some independent verification from the pilot's instructor. 

If you are thinking, "Gawd, they've made the program even worse!" it's better than it was a year or so ago.  I was looking for an activity and I found this long convoluted description and checklists that would make both pilot and instructor avoid the program like the plague  much worse than "we want it done to ACS standards." We had a visit from one of the mukity-mucks in the national program and I was one of the people asked to meet with him. I told him exactly what I thought - the main reason Wings wasn't use more was that it was to complicated and they somehow managed to increase the intimidation factor exponentially. I probably wasn't the only one and there was a change for the better.

and the FAA is undergoing change again for the wings program. Voice your thoughts here

[donkaye]

I find the Wings Program to be so much better than giving  a "standard" Flight Review, that except in very unusual situations, it is the only way I am doing Flight Reviews.  I do the Basic Wings and Advanced Wings yearly myself.  From a Flight Instructor's point of view it is also a good way to renew your Flight Instructor Certificate by having 5 students participate in it over a 2 year period of time--and it is so easy to document from both the student's and instructor's point of view.  (See AC 61-91J).

[midlifeflyer]

Thank you @mike_elliott.

Although the CFI renewal didn't work, you got me thinking. I received instruction (in a Mooney, no less!) during a vacation earlier this year which included tasks which qualified for  the one flight credit I needed to complete a phase. We discussed,  I applied, he verified, and I have my new flight review certificate direly from the FAA.

Lesson: we hear so many people say they only log what they "need." Seems that sometimes you don't know that what you don't think you need today you might need tomorrow!