201er

I was recently talking with some Mooney guys about practicing stalls in Mooneys. And if there was one thing we agreed on, was that we don't wanna do them! Basically the risk of an unrecoverable spin, or at least soiled upholstery, is great enough that practicing the stall isn't worth it. I wonder if others think alike or disagree. How do you feel about practicing stalls in your Mooney? When was the last time you've done it. How do you feel about doing them again. Have you ever ended up in a spin while trying to stall a Mooney? Is stall awareness and recovery in basic trainers sufficient for flight in Mooney to the point that there's not need to continue to practice stalls in these spin prone aircraft?

Looks like there's more M20Js for sale at once than in recent memory. When I was looking around there was rarely more than 25-30 listings at once. Do you think there are most listings cause people are getting out or because the market is better and people feel it's a better time to make a sale?

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20J-201/1978-MOONEY-M20J-201/1282013.htm Wow, just 85amu with lopresti cowl and 1 piece belly. No panel pic so assume the worst but that must be a really fast 201!

I'm getting a little tired of reading about screw ups people made in their Mooneys or trying to roll a cirrus a couple feet of the ground. I'd like to hear about some positive things people have done. What are your stories where your decision making specifically lead to the avoidance of a bad situation? Have you cancelled a flight for weather and then really enjoyed your decision because it became even worse than forecast? Or have you caught a critical mechanical problem in preflight that saved you from flying? Let's hear some stories about smart moves by pilots and see what else we can learn from them.

"But those Belgians, they made you so damn...Evil. And, of course, they share a border with the Dutch."

That's the weakest link right there!

Yeah, but that's your bonanza side :P

I just wanted to point out that I love the Mooney community both on this site and in person. I think in other aviation subcircles (but more notably outside) people get too competitive, judgmental, and elitist. I think the Mooney airplane is much the reason the community is so terrific. We're all flying much the same airframe with some minor differences. The guy in the $25k C model is flying nearly the same airframe as the guy with the $600k acclaim. Also we all already know that mooneys are super fast and efficient so there's no defensiveness or insecurity that leads to arguments. Just the right number of Mooneys out there to have a diversity of pilots while remaining tightly nit. You guys are awesome and the pride of general aviation.

Looks nice but I bet yours could take just about anything that one can.

I did a few more searches on the NTSB database using some quick parameters and minimal analysis. Searching Cirrus vs Mooney (which I bet includes all other non-m20 models too) brought up the following totals: Mooney: Non-Fatal - 2419 Fatal - 666 Total - 3085 Cirrus: Non-Fatal - 126 Fatal - 92 Total - 219 That's 22% of accidents were fatal in Mooney while 42% were fatal in the more modern, more equipped, parachute equipped Cirrus. WTF? If that's legit, then you guys on mooneyspace are doing way better flying that tin can without a parachute!

"189 people have perished with 24 people seriously injured and 3 with minor injuries... In the same time frame, there have been 33 "saves" with the Cirrus Airframe Parachute System in which 69 people survived." http://www.cirruspilots.org/Content/CirrusSafety.aspx Sounds statistically pretty useless (especially for that kind of money). Actually it makes the plane sound like a death trap considering most accidents end up being fatal in it rather than injured. I counted 14 out of 24 serious injuries involving the chute, so only 10 people got away with injuries protected by the air frame alone. The rest died. 11 deployments resulted in death and part of 96 fatal accidents. Also reading through most of these "saves" you really can't say the pilots wouldn't have made it without one. Like I can't believe they credit themselves with "saves" for these pointless deployments: -passenger activated when fuel streaming from tank filler openings -door popped open upon takeoff, pilot reported rain in the cockpit and attempted to manage door -pilot disoriented during missed approach in IMC (they have a super AP onboard, cmon!) I'll grant that maybe 10 of these were legit reasons where the pilot had no control and the chute really saved the day. I agree that it can be a good thing to have in the right circumstances, but it's not a reason to get a cirrus. I'm sure Mooney's airframe has saved a heck of a lot more people to escape with minor to serious injuries rather than fatal. A quick search of the NSTB database shows 229 Cirrus involved in accidents/incidents. 96 accidents were previously listed as fatal. So despite a parachute system, 42% of cirrus accidents are fatal!? So 33 chute saves, leaves only 100 non-fatal incidents/accidents.

You're already paying for this as part of your insurance premium. Wonder why insurance on fixed gear cirrus is more for equal hull value if it's not more costly to fix?

Considering that's where most accidents happen, what good's a chute?

Alright guys. So if I redid the poll and added an option "Cirrus" who would be voting for it as their #1 safety recommendation?

§ 3.675 Cylinder head temperature indicating system for air-cooled engines. A cylinder head temperature indicator shall be provided for each engine on airplanes equipped with cowl flaps. In the case of airplanes which do not have cowl flaps, an indicator shall be provided if compliance with the provisions of § 3.581 is demonstrated at a speed in excess of the speed of best rate of climb. Interestingly CHT and Fuel Pressure gauge are required equipment for our airplanes in order to be type certified. Ammeter, OAT, EGT are not. So it is my understanding they can be removed entirely. However, the CHT and Fuel Pressure, since they are not required for VFR/IFR flight can be marked inop (if broken) till the next annual. They way I understand it they are required for certification rather than flight rules or airworthiness.

Brett, you may want to get your Pitot/Static looked at cause I'm sure it must be wrong! How the heck do you do that??? I can't get that sort of speed firewalled on everything.

Sometime you're up there with nothing to do, can you take photos of not just the speed but also the EDM830 and post those side by side? I'd like to see all the engine parameters alongside the speed you're getting. It's not disbelief (well maybe a little) but out of curiosity how everything else plays in. BTW, what's your mag timing? And when you're getting these speeds are you hand flying or on autopilot? I think George tends to be worth at least a few knots and if he's got multiple hands then possibly more.

Why don't we make a section for bonanza flying squirrels while we're at it.

Not everyone gets 155ktas and a 25+ year paint job with no wrinkles.

I was talking about affordable safety devices.

Ok, so I've started a few discussions about a few gadgets I value but I'd like to open this up to a broader discussion of what one single device you would recommend to others as the most accident preventing or life saving item they should buy (if they don't already have). Instruction, proficiency, and meticulous maintenance aside (because I don't think anyone but the dentist would argue that these aren't money well spent when it comes to safety), and given a Mooney, what devices do you think help improve safety? Feel free to post a numbered list from most to least, but vote on the single most. Vote on what you'd recommend to others but if you've experienced something that saved your life, be sure to share. The reason I believe there may exist a dichotomy between what may have saved you and what you'd recommend can come down to probability. So for instance if a traffic avoidance system saved you from an imminent midair, it may be the greatest thing you ever bought but you may not believe that midairs are frequent enough to merit others investing in the system. So if there is such a split in opinion, be sure to state it.

Yeah, but it's so rare, that it's newsworthy. Cars do it all the time so it doesn't thrill anybody.

The 2011 Nall report for 2010 GA accidents found that "a total of 420 individuals were killed in the 245 fatal accidents." It certainly is unfortunate and I think we would all hope to get this number down to as close to none as possible. But to put things into perspective, here are some other things that are more likely to kill the average GA pilot than an airplane (based on 2010 CDC stats): Tuberculosis - 569 deaths Hepatatis - 7,564 HIV - 8,369 Malnutrition - 2,790 Meningitis - 608 Hernia - 1,832 Motor Vehicle Accidents - 35,332 Water, air, and space accidents - 1,029 (420 were in GA) Accidental discharge of firearm - 606 Accidental drowning - 3,782 Falls - 26,009 Homicide - 16,259 Drug Induced Death - 40,393 Alcohol Induced Death - 25,692 In other words you are more likely to shoot yourself to death playing with your gun than with your plane. You have a better chance at surviving an airplane accident than disease you might pick up from a hooker. You are far more likely to drown at the beach, in the pool, or in your own tub. And for those of you whose wives complain that your mooney is more costly than a drug addiction, you are nearly 100 times less likely to die of it as a result. Note: Since I know some of you are inevitably gonna get your panties all tied up in a knot about the lack of scientific correlation between number of hours flown and exposures to risk... I know. Just some things to think about. My point is that if you eat healthy, stay away from bad stuff, don't piss people enough to kill you, and otherwise live a fulfilling life, the chances you are taking by enjoying your favorite hobby (even to the max extent) are far outweighed by other things that can bring it to an early termination. So fly safe, be responsible, and enjoy.

I think he got some kind of mod to block some air from the front to allow them to be hotter to even things out. Byron, can you explain that more?

Now I can't ever tell you to upgrade. You got a J Mooney for F money. Who cares about the back window? Very nice panel, paint, and all around very well kept plane.