Mooneyland

Checking your muffler is sound advice. Busted pieces of the internal baffles can kill an engine if the pieces block the exhaust. Backfires happen sometimes when too much fuel is collected in the cylinder and when a spark goes off kaboom. Check that muffler. richard @ mooneyland

Of Course! Per your quote; Buyer should always beware, but in this case the repair station was FAA approved for this type thing and I've flown several planes in my career that had been repaired of serious damage. The birds are all still flying and flying well. The problems to look for in purchasing previously damged birds is; was there anything that had to be straightened out, or were all repairs done by replacing bolt on parts with new parts? Further, were new parts bolted onto repaired damage parts? If not, then the plane should be good as new; only much cheaper than if it had NDH for marketing purposes. We all get on airliners all the time that have been damged and repaired at one time or another. I think that many of us pay way too much importance on previous damage history. Properly and legally repaired airplanes by the right kinds of shops makes the plane no less safe than it ever was; it's just the resale value that is affected, so if you buy it right with that in mind; you'll be flying more plane than you could otherwise afford. Don't forget that there are upsides to some damage history such as engines were torn down for inspection, so everything associated with that engine gets inspected including anything that may have been going amiss having nothing to do with damage history; plus they put a whole slew of new parts in a torn down and inspected engine; and of course a new prop. My view is that if you purchase a plane previously damaged, make certain that the fixit shop is an FAA approved repair station or the manufacturer. You will then be assured of a good and safe airplane. Fly safe, richard @ Mooneyland

You're right. It was all very well documented and when the annual was done, we called the repair station and they gave it an enthusiastic clean bill of health. What did impress me about this bird other than flying it was the condition inside the belly and engine compartment. It all looked brand new, so I wouldn't hesitate on this bird due to the damage history and of course it's priced accordingly and for 252 money, this has many upgrades including being a lot newer airplane. It sure goes fast and runs smooth. richard @ mooneyland

I sold this Bravo for the last owner to the current owner, a well known celebrity photographer. The damge history was definately in the price he paid, but we had that plane checked out and annualed by a Mooney experienced mechanic; in fact he did the work in my hanger for convenience sake. That gave me a chance to go over this bird stem to stearn. The mechanic commented that it is impossible to tell that there had been any damage history because anything that got bent got replaced with brand new parts, and according to the well documented logs, the plane really didn't need that much replaced, plus the mechanic and I phoned the repair station that did the work to verify no more was done than was entered into the logs. That way I could explain to the buyer intellegently about its history. I think that I remember that the FAA states that if a bent part is replaced with a new part, then it was not considered damage history in the fullest sense of the word. In other words, if you back your bird into the hanger and your aileron hits a hanger door and you reskin the aileron to repair it, that is damage history. If you replace it with new it is not damage history. In any event, there were 3 incidents with this plane; all in the landing phase. Many buyers ask me about the "Super-Stretch" Mooney's; I'm just not a fan. I have tried to like them and have flown them extensively, but they are a handfull on landing pure and simple and in flight they do not feel much like a Mooney. Kind of the trucky feel of the C-210. One of the mistakes Mooney made on this model was not re-designing the gear shocks. Mooney's have gone up in weight about 800 lbs with these big heavy models and that takes its toll on the standard gear disks, in fact they don't last long at all and soon after they begin sagging at all, the tail of those models sits awfully close to the ground as you may have noticed on some of them. They are very nose-heavy birds and you've got to be ready with some muskles to hold the nose up after touchdown. Another of the reasons for the many landing mishaps in these is that in order to get them slow enough to land without much float, they feel a bit squirly at the published short final numbers which makes some fly them in too fast for the wing to settle w/o float. Catch 22. All that extra weight also makes the brakes not as affective as on the lighter models and they go through some brake pads! I had delivered this plane to Los Angeles when it sold to the current owner. We also re-did the red faded interior with overstuffed leather seats. What a difference in comfort that makes. Anyhow, these are very comfortable and capable "straight-line" traveling machines. I had made it from San Antonio to El Monte in five hours flat into the wind at about an 18.5 gph power setting. The bird flew the trip magnificently and rigging was exactly on. For standard 252 money, I'd have to think twice about this bird because it offers so much; just know that with these new models, gone are the days of easy cheap maintenance. For those that are wondering why Mooneyland doesn't have the listing; it had to do with the buyer's soon to be ex who picked us up at the airport and we ended up getting dumped in a ghetto half way to our LAX destination because she had forgotten to feed her dogs! In fairness; with all her complaining of having to pick us up after we delivered it all the way to LA at no charge (my son lives there); I asked her to let us off and to go feed her dogs. She did! It took us over 3 hours of waiting to get a cab, and after telling her husband that I was rude to HER! we got into it. Anyhow now that there is a divorce that was easy to see coming (reason for selling), we've made up some, but he jumped from the fry pan into the fire! He's now dating a well known bad-girl actress. ) He's really a good guy and he bought the plane right so he should be able to sell it right. If any were worrying about the damage history, don't sweat it. This bird is like brand new in and out. I thought you might enjoy this little story about this Bravo. fly safe, richard @ mooneyland

Sure enough. There ain't nuthin' cheap about flying. It's a matter of trying not to get screwed every time you turn around on some repair or upgrade which is why I'm trying to settle this problem prior to him upgrading; new taxes, etc. I think once we get her on jacks and practice plus making sure nothing is sticking out from the co-pilot seat frame that he came in contact with; he'll be okay. Hell, if I could teach a small woman customer how to operate the Johnson bar, I think I can teach an old Military flight instructor.... richard

Even though I would be involved in the sale of his bird and the purchase of another with electric gear, I'd still rather try everything else first as his F model was already equipped with a Garmin 530 which is hard to find in F's and early 201's. Next week sometime I'm going to fly with Bill in his F model over to Boyd Maddox's hanger in Houston. We're going to put the bird up on jacks for Johnson Bar practice. I also think that one of the new tires (Michelin Condor) is making contact with the gear well because the last couple inches of travel requires heavy pushing like you're pushing against the air pressure of the tire, so Boyd will also check that out as he installed the new tires during pre-buy inspection. We're also going to find out what it was down near the floor that injured Bill's hand during gear transition. Thanks for the inputs. Richard Zephro

Thanks for the info. The owner is a retired gent who hurt his hand raising the gear somehow and he wants to go electric so I am looking for the cheapest and best solution short of having to sell his bird and find him an electric one. Regards, richard zephro

Do any of you old schoolers remember an electric motor actuator that was invented for the manual gear Mooney's? I need to see if it is still available for one of my customer's needs. As I recall, you still have to hit the cradle button to release the Johnson Bar but then the motor takes over. Lemme know, thanks, richard zephro @ Mooneyland

Aircraft Spruce sells foam but for high $$$. Otherwise you can check with any aircraft upholstery company to provide. I got mine though the guy who does my interior sewing or you can just wing it using fire retardant foam, (with field approval) basically the same as the foam used in the interior insulation but has to be 1/4" or less in thickness. I used 3M spray adhesive to tack it in place, then some more on top of the foam in spots to just hold the carpet in place. zef

Congradulations Joe! I owned a '78 201 for over 5 years and loved it. The '78 showed improvements over the previous year including an improved emergency gear down system, push-pull controls, prop, full ennunciator panel including low fuel "idiot" lights and more. Be sure to check for security the brass side plug located on the bottom of the engine pilot's side at the side of the fuel servo. FAA originally had between and between dates of overhaul to check, but the problem has been more wide spread than that. The large brass hex head should be tie wired, but further checked for tightness as some of the ones we discovered had messed up threads and could pop to spite being tie wired. You can see a closeup picture on the mooneyland.com blog page if you'd like. http://www.mooneyland.com/mooneyblog.htm about half way down the page. Also worthy of periodic checking is the mounting bolt for the single Dual Mag. There is a step shaped aluminum block between the bolt and the engine case and that block can wear some allowing the mounting bolt to loosen. This happened on my 201 and I know of others. The mag will fall off if that bolt loosens! About the only control that is in the way is your cowl flap control. It sticks way out and is somewhat in the way of boarding the pilot seat. Here's what I did that worked out well: I had my mechanic remove the old cable control as well as the centering spring on the actuator scissors near the fire wall and then installed a black prop type vernier cable and got a field approval. I think it was 36" long but measure your old one to be sure. That accomplished two things: First the pull out or open position does not stick out as far as the push pull cable, plus you can infinately adjust your cowl flaps. What I find in warm weather is that I usually need to open the cowl flaps half way at cruise to keep temps from hitting redline, but half is more than you need and creates noise and drag not to mention strain on the cowl flap hinges. Opening the cowl flaps just slightly is all that is usually needed, in fact some guys adjust the cowl flaps not to close completely leaving them open just enough not to have to open to the half position in the summer, but there are times when I want them fully closed so the vernier contol give you the best of all worlds. Be sure the 208 A&B SB's for the tubes were done and done correctly. There is more to the SB's than just checking the outer tubes and changing insulation. Included are running a magnet 18" inside the lower tubes one at a time by removing the main wing mount bolt accessible from the baggage compartment. If you pull out rust you have problems. Meanwhile your mechanic can shoot the inside of the tubes with Corrosion X or the like before they re-install the bolt. Also the windows should have been removed at some point and resealed with the proper PRC. Be sure there are no sealant gaps where the window bottoms meet the aluminum. One other thing I did to help quiet down that loud IO-360 was installing 1/4" fire resistant, faa approved foam under the carpets and up to the firewall. Quite a decible difference resulted as that exhaust pipe is right under the co-pilot's seat area. After market wing tips are a cool addition to save up for. I think Lasar still sells those. Fly safe, richard zephro @ Mooneyland

The last set of shock disks that I purchased were from Southwest Texas Aviation and he had a bunch of them for about $50.00 each. Not sure if they still have that price but check them out because they have been cheaper traditionally than other suppliers. You can talk to Russell Stallings: 800 749-SWTA. They're in San Marcos Texas midway between Austin and San Antonio. Hope this helps. richard zephro Mooneyland

If you guys spend a lot of time above 10,000', then I would suggest looking into Gami injectors. Gami's work their best on the 231 engine, but I've seen some on the IO-360 that perform very well especially for LOP running. Right now you can only lean to the hottest (number 3) cylinder but the Gami's flood that hot one with fuel to cool it down and thus you can lean to all four cyls w/o running rough. The engine also runs cooler LOP that way and gets better fuel economy. You should see between 1/2 to 1 GPH in savings while making your engine run smoother and happier. Last I checked Gamis for the 4 banger's run around $800 plus install which goes fairly quickly. Above 10,000' I usually set RPM at 2600-2650 and all the MP I can get. The nice thing about an injected engine is the faster it turns, the smoother it usually is and aside from the prop, 2600 RPM is not a lot of RPM for an engine; so that never concerns me to run 'em that high, and the faster you can go at those high altitudes, the more stable the airplane is in that thin air. I hope this helps some. Regards, richard zephro mooneyland.com

I'm happy you posted that information because the Sky Tech starter is an amazing add-on that warrents acknowledgement. It is just that much better of a starter than the OEM starter. For about $300 and something, it is one of the most single things you can do to improve the system and I'll tell you what; I think because the Sky Tech does such a better job that it will pay for itself in ways unimaginable, makes the engine run better and last longer due to the limit of abuse these engines go through. More than 80% of engine wear is at the starting of the engine and the easier it starts the easier it is on your engine. Let's face it. Engines are a substantial part of the cost of operation and anything you can do makes it last longer and yields CHEAPER OPERATING COSTS! Just my 2 cents worth. Fly safe, richard "zef" zephro Mooneyland.com

I'm not completely sure if that is the starter or the engine. This is a fleeting subject for the norm because every Lyc seems different just like every Mooney is a bit different being hand built. Some are so easy to start that I have done the usual thing and they wanted cold start even when warm. Go figure. Others are as difficult to turn on as an ex wife, but one thing that I do know is that the method I use universaly normally gets 'em started no matter the mood. The more you get to know your own airplane, the better and easier it is to hot start because you learn the idiosyncrocies. Here's the greatest thing in the world............You own your own Mooney's! What a priviledge! Fly safe, richard zephro Mooneyland

Unless it's freezing outside, I personally do a hot start unless the plane has sat 4 hours or more. The thing is with a hot start is that if the plane has cooled off too much for the hot start; you haven't hurt anything whereas if you do a cold start on a previously started engine; you may have to do the flooded start thing and no matter what, I think that the engine does not like you when you have to do that. I would always try the hot start first before going to the cold start proceedure. If your Lycoming doesn't have the newer light-weight high speed starter by Sky Tech, save your penny's and get one! The engine turns about twice as fast during starts and makes all the difference in hot starting those injected Lycomings. Fly safe, richard zephro; Mooneyland.com

Oops. I duplicated one of the links. Should be: http://www.mooneyland.com/Interior.htm, http://www.mooneyland.com/current_projects.htm, and http://www.mooneyland.com/201%20ride%20pimped.htm Sorry, zef Mooneyland.com

Yeah, some of the ceilings in Mooney's are single piece while others are two pieced affairs. No matter, they're all a pain and when the ABS ages enough it will crack like egg shells. What I normally do to repair those is using a fiberglass kit; roughing up the rear side of the ABS and apply the fiberglass and resin. On the face of each panel where you've repaired a crack you can fill that repaired crack in with a tube of body putty, lightly sand after it dries, and then repaint your panels. I've tried everything including the expensive plastic dye, but by far my best results have been in using several light fogging coats of Rustoleum enamel which eventually cures very hard and I use a spray gun and compressor. For the beige interiors I normally use the Almond color and for grey accents I get White and have them add one shot of black so it gives a kind of Oyster color that is used in later Mooney's. It may take a full weekend to do the complete job on all of the panels, but worth it in spades as it makes the inside of the plane more pleasing to look at and gives the feeling of added space. Get rid of those ugly yellowing ABS panels! We need to keep our Mooney fleet as young looking as possible and make 'em better than they were before. You can see results here if you'd like: http://www.mooneyland.com/current_projects.htm or here: http://www.mooneyland.com/current_projects.htm, or here: http://www.mooneyland.com/201%20ride%20pimped.htm Fly safe, richard zephro "zef" Mooneyland

With all of the Mooney's that I get to fly, each one is a bit different, but this is what I do on average for what it's worth: http://www.mooneyland.com/Starting_a_Mooney.htm I gave the web page in order to not have to re-type the information here. I hope this helps some. Fly safe, Richard Zephro Mooneyland

I forgot to mention that I found where the arching was at night upper cowling off with the engine running. Not easy, certainly dangerous with that prop turning, but what could I do? Richard Zephro Mooneyland

On an F model I once owned; I had a similar problem. That bird kept eating alternators and no one could find the problem for quite some time. I got tired of $300.00 replacements and started using the exact same car alternator with lifetime warranty. No, I don't recommend this but I had to find the problem and eating $300.00 alternators weekly got old quickly until I had to get creative. The problem turned out to be the landing light wires chaffing against the metal cowling. Once I replaced the wires and put on a genuine FAA approved alternator, the problem finally came to an end after spending well over 2 grand in alternators. Fly safe, Richard Zephro Mooneyland

Being in the Mooney resale biz I get to fly with a lot of different pilots and everyone has their crosswind technique they believe in. We just addressed this issue with a new article at Mooneyland: http://www.mooneyland.com/crosswind_landings.htm In reading this article, some may disagree and some may learn but I invite you to check it out and have a followup discussion if need be. Fly safe, Richard Zephro; Mooneyland

It was interesting reading all of the comments re: 201 vs. 231. I had even writen an article about that on my website having owned a 201 for almost six years, but never personally owned a 231, yet I have many hours in various 231's. We all know the obvious benefits of having a turbo in an airplane. Considering that we lose horsepower with altitude in normally asperated Mooneys, turbos would seem to be the answer for aircraft. While true it can be a bit more expensive owning and operating a turbo'd airplane, it can also make the difference in saving one's bacon should you get ice at altitude as I did in my 201. At 12,000' there was simply not enough horse power to ensure my safe arrival in Las Vegas that time when no ice was in the forecast. Worthy of mention is the fact that few if any 201's have a hot prop while many 231's do and if you ever get ice on your prop as I did and nearly didn't make it to my destination because of that and not enough HP in my engine to hold altitude, I had began to think about moving up to a 231. Most 231's don't have a muffler (I've seen one). All 201's do and the life expectancy of the turbo is about that of the muffler so that part is about a push except turbo's lately have gone up in price to overhaul above that of the muffler. A 231 usually burns about 12.7 GPH in cruise, in fact I normally lean to that fuel flow at 75%. However with the advent of Gami Injectors; the 231 will burn down to around 10 gph happily running lean of peak. I'm not sure if any other aircraft engine benefits as much as the 231 does from Gami's. Many 231's have engine monitors and I have flown quite a number of 231's before and after the conversion and the results are remarkable. I also feel that Gami's help keep the 231 cylinders healthier because they are all running at about the same temperatures and most top overhauls in 231's were not really needed so much as re-doing the two hot running rear cylinders, but sales talk by the mechanic would usually convince 231 owners to do a complete top even though it may only need those two hot cylinders done. In any event, most of the 231's that I have sold have been converted to Gami's on my persuasion to do so and they are all very pleased that I talked them into the conversion. So while the 231 can be somewhat more expensive to operate than the 201 but really doesn't have to be; if you take care of things and are a decent engine operator, the 231 will also endear itself to you as the 201's already do. Ham handed pilots don't fair so well with that engine. I will say this: I have never had a 231 engine so much as break wind while I've had several engine failures in the IO-360, mostly due to the old style fuel injector combined with improper maintenance practices. The six-pack engine is easier to hot start, smoother to run, and even quieter. My experience is about half of the 231's require a top (or at least major cyl work) on the way to TBO and half don't require the top. In studying this thing I came to the conclusion that those that make it to TBO without a top were operated at more reasonable altitudes (12-17K) and flown correctly whereby a 201 engine can take a certain amount of abuse without tearing up the engine so long as you're aware of the problems the single dual mag can cause in certain situations. (Keep watch on the mag's mounting bolt for loosness). As in all of flying, everything becomes a trade-off. The 231 will normally use more runway for takeoff than the 201 seems to because it is only 10 more horsepower and the 231 is a heavier airplane, so keep that in mind when transitioning to the 231. If you have Gami's in the 231, expect the fuel burn to be about the same as a 201 so that's a push. However, the 231 being a faster airplane (at altitude); arriving quicker to a destination places less time on your airframe, engine, instruments, you, etc. and that has to be considered in the weighing process of which way to go. The most interesting conclusion I had arrived at was that the 231 top overhaul rate seemed no different whether it was the orginal GB, LB, LB1, or even the MB as found in the 252's engine. About half of any of them make it to TBO w/o a top and the other half get a top. Gami's in the 252 are not that effective because the 252 has a much improved air induction system, but in the 231 application can save large in maintenance and fuel over time closing any gap between operating costs. Sex appeal whether we admit it or not is no small reason that we own airplanes, and in my flying experience; as sexy as the 201 is, the 231 is sexier to fly if that makes any sense. When that engine is idling, it is exciting to hear due to the cam lobes and never seems to spit and pop after landing as many 201's do. The bottom line is that if you have to stretch to afford the operating costs of a 201, then the 231 is probably not for you, but if you have a few extra bux to invest, the 231 is an amazing performer for only 210 horsepower. The 252 has magic in it because it is appreciably faster than the 231 with the same horsepower and even those 231's that have been converted to the 252 engine cannot keep up. Many experienced Mooney types will agree that the 252 is the finest Mooney ever to be produced. That being the case, the 231 is close, but then again; all Mooneys are the finest aircraft in their class, and the E model hot rod is probably the best bang for the buck on the lower $$ end, but as I said, they're all good! Fly safe, richard zephro; Mooneyland

I haven't scoured this forum to see if there has been any discussion on the upper part of the Mooney tubular structure, but we had recently found a 231 that was in the beginning stages of corrosion at the upper center tube. This was not on an otherwise corroded airplane, in fact the lower tubes were in perfect shape. What is aparently happening to cause the rust is "sweat" or condensation from temp and humidity changes. That upper tube is very thin in mil specs and it won't take much to have rust penetrate and eventually seperate or at least extreemely weaken that tube. That particular section of tube is responsible for helping hold the engine mount and the weight it carries, so any breach in that tube could affect safety. When I was a Rocket dealer some years back I remember asking Charlie Dugosh what his opinion was on the Rocket and Missile conversions. He felt fine with the Rocket as it was mounted in a K model airframe. His concern was for early 201's being converted with the heavy six pack Missile conversion that used the Bonanza engine because early 201's had a more light weight upper ceiling tube than the 231, at least to the early '80's models. After that time Mooney used the same structure on both models. His concern was later down the line if that center tube corrodes at all it could have disasterous effect on the airplane. We had suggested to Darwin Conrad of Rocket that he includes a doubler installed on that upper tube in his conversion but don't think he ever did. So far there have been no failures that I am aware of, but our fleet is not getting any younger so it would be prudent at some point to remove your ceiling panels or at least loosen one side so that you can pull it down to take a look at that center tube. If you see any rust forming at all, then it would be necessary to pull the ceiling all the way and determine if any of the rust found has penetrated the tube. If so, treatment of the rust plus installing a doubler would be the cheapest cure. If any of you want to see photos of the potential problem, I have written an article about it here: http://www.mooneyland.com/check_your_tubes.htm. Fly safe, richard zephro; Mooneyland.com

It was not enough that you telephoned me to pick my professional brain so you could better continue your search armed with all I shared with you again under false circumstances; the fact remains George that your information is misleading at best and slanderous at worst and I think that the truth comes out here and is easy to see that you know nothing about which you speak because I have proved you to be wrong in every instance and virtually none of my customers agree with you or I would have heard about it. Rather than to promote anyone who has spent so much time and resources improving the operation and ownership of our fine Mooney aircraft with tons of information it is counter productive and perhaps even dangerous in your feeble attempt at making yourself seem like some professional because you own one Mooney. You are far from a professoinal and a mis-leader of information that could have broader effects than your limited mind would allow to comprehend. richard zephro

GEORGE PERRY and the BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU! I received a phone call this morning from the Better Business Bureau asking me why all the sudden increase interest in my business due to increased inquiries no doubt spurred by George Perry's comments. I had asked them again about the 2 complaints that were issued and thus my B- Score. At the Austin TX office today; 512 206-2857, Ms. Mary Beth said that those two complaints WERE NOT strikes against my company because we made effort to resolve the matters and the complaintants no longer wanted to persue a complaint whereby no money was exchanged. THE REASON FOR THE B- grade is because the BBB is missing some information on my company such as when I started this company, updated address etc. and then offered me a charter membership because my business has been so clean over 20 years. Perhaps George Perry's child-like antics can learn some lesson here that he decided to publicize something about my highy specialized company that was not true. While it was nice of him to offer to help prospective Mooney buyers locate airplanes for themselves at no charge, I would hesitate to use such a person to help in such an important endeavor as to help approve or disapprove any airplane, the danger involved to prospective buyers who take his advice, and re-think the validity of any post he has made on this forum. I would consider the way this person went about slandering my company and my good name when he also never spent a nickel at Mooneyland and further decided to infer inaccurate gossip as to our fees and the way that we charge them; both of which statements were completely inaccurate. We at Coast to Coast Aircraft aka Mooneyland are asking George Perry to verify this BBB information he so falsely reported and submit an admission of inaccuracy and sincere PUBLIC APOLOGY on this very forum and to warrent that he will stop any further public slander about Mooneyland. Sincerely, Richard Zephro