TheAv8r

That's a beautiful looking C!

Trying to follow you here but I think you’re confirming what I’ve seen… So 26gal tank, you put in 14.6gal which means you had 11.4gal in that tank (26-14.6). And the fuel was barely visible so the tank appeared almost dry under the fill cap, which means roughly 10gal would still be in the plane even if the fuel was showing dry under the cap (unstickable). But the scary part is it could be 3, 5, 8, you don’t know. Am I following you correctly?

That has not been my experience in short-bodies, but all of the ones we've seen this on had bladders, so perhaps that is changing it. I have seen multiple cases where you opened the fuel tank and there was no wet fuel, but there was still 8-10 gallons in the tank. I'm able to know because I have CIES senders in my plane accurate to 1/10th of a gallon. If you don't, you have no idea how much is left in the area you can't see and that's dangerous .

Here's an example of a Mooney M20F that checks all your boxes that is priced at $164k: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20F+EXEC+21&listing_id=2448117&s-type=aircraft . M20J with a KAP-150 AP but otherwise what you want for $175k: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2446676&s-type=aircraft M20E with your panel and mid-time engine for $110k: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20E&listing_id=2444592&s-type=aircraft Current market dynamics inform prices. There's some leeway there, but that's just what it is .

@CFIcare A few thoughts for you on this journey: The 1950s Bonanzas are underpowered and have convoluted fuel systems requiring careful management. They will cruise around 140kts at a higher fuel burn than the Mooney. That's why they command such a comparatively low purchase price when comparing to the 1960s and above V35 Bonanzas. It does not mean it's a dealbreaker, only that you have to stay on top of the fuel system and get well-trained by someone who knows the airplane. You will not find what you're looking for for $100k, as you've already seen on the market. $120k will step you up into a nice C model, an E or an F with a compromise. You will not get a J in this price range with what you're looking for, that would be closer to $170-180k for a J with these specs. I have been in 3 airplanes in the last 6 months doing transition training that had panels and engine times you described, 2 Fs and an E, that were recently purchased. Both Fs were in the $140-155k range, the E was in the $170k range. They also had speed mods and the E was basically perfect (speed mods, interior, paint, engine, panel, etc.). You're asking for a plane at the top of the market: good engine, top of the line modern panel, so you need to be ready to pay top of the market prices, or slim your list down to match your budget. I would budget $130k for a C, $150k for an E or an F for what you're wanting to find. Hopefully you will find one for less than that, but if you don't want to change your wish list, that's what you need to be ready for. I've owned Mooneys for the better part of the last 10 years. I've never had a grounding parts issue. I have had to replace the dreaded intake boot, but I was able to find one, and now I have a backup one I bought from LASAR when they did their last run. Parts availability is better on the Bonanzas, but also much more expensive. If you want to buy a plane to immediately fly the crap out of it, don't buy one with a run-out engine. The wait is 6-8 months to get it overhauled. Avionics work will probably be around 2-3 months, but will cost more, especially with a primary engine monitor and a GFC-500 ($20-25k install). If you are sold on the primary engine monitor, I highly recommend also looking for one that has CIES Fuel Senders, you can't really effectively stick the tanks in Mooneys past a certain fuel level and with inaccurate gauges you won't know how much fuel is in your airplane! For a 4-seat, fast, glass-panel, autopilot airplane, your options are really Mooney, Bonanza, Cirrus, Comanche, Rockwell Commander, Super Viking, or Experimental but 4-seat experimentals are equally pricey to obtain and harder to find. The Mooney is the cheapest price-wise of that group. Each has their pros and cons.

Do you have an engine monitor? That could bring some peace of mind too so the narrative to new buyers is: OHed by Zephyr, a well-known shop Everything done by the book, accessories replaced, hoses, etc., all well documented in the logs Here are the instructions from Zephyr and Lycoming for break-in, here is the engine data from the first 5/10 hours showing how the break-in was completed, power settings, CHTs, etc. Here is the oil analysis from the first 2 oil changes following break-in showing a reduction in wear metals

Yeah, the 3-blade prop is going to come with a cruise penalty. I also have a SureFly and GAMI injectors on my plane so I can run it really smoothly LOP which will get me down to the 7.5gph range at the same speed.

The only speed mod I have on my E is the cowl enclosure (LASAR), it has the 1-piece windshield (not J) but that's it. I get the same as you LOP, around 142-145kts TAS @ 65% power at 7.5-8gph, but ROP I will get 152-155kts TAS at 75% power, 12gph to be 150deg ROP. Book figures are actually like 160kts if you can believe it, but nobody is getting those numbers out of a stock E haha. If you're getting 148, it is a tad slow for an E, I've owned 2 and both had no problem hitting low 150s at 75% power. I routinely fly mine LOP, the 10kt speed penalty is worth the 4gph saving... Up at higher altitudes (e.g. 9000) I see even better, this past weekend I flew to NC and at 9k, 65% power (WOT, around 20" MP, 2450 RPM) leaned to 8gph (20deg LOP) I was getting 145-148kts TAS.

I overhauled the engine in my M20E (also by Zephyr) last year, they were true to their estimate of 6 months. I got some extras from them but the range you're thinking of with $25-30k is accurate, but that's just the engine, not accessories, not labor to remove and replace. Keep in mind for it to be counted an overhaul, Lycoming at a minimum requires all fuel and oil hoses be replaced ($1200 when I did mine). You also have the prop governor, oil cooler, engine mount, engine shock absorbers, scat tubes, etc. to think about to do it right. If you're wanting to sell the plane after an overhaul - you want to do it right, it'll be the first thing a buyer questions if you don't. Zephyr is a well-enough known shop that it carries some weight on it so even if it was a lower 50hr engine, recent and by Zephyr and done by the book, you could maximize the return out of it, but you won't get all the money back. However you're looking at a 6-8 month timeline, and the market for planes is not great right now.

It was my pleasure, thank you for your kind words Nick! You made my job easy as a very sharp student and great pilot, I enjoyed flying with you and sharing my knowledge about these amazing machines . Looking forward to following your future adventures in your new bird!

Not always. It is automatic based on MAP/RPM and Fuel Flow and what has been entered into the configuration. I would compare it against the POH, go to an altitude specified in the POH like 7500ft (checking against density altitude to ensure that's the altitude the engine is really at). Set a 75% power setting, then see what the G3X reads-out.

Oh man, that's a highly debated question . I'd recommend starting with the Lycoming O-360 Operators Manual, it's about as comprehensive as you can get as to the operation of the engine. Running the engine at > 75% power all the time is a recipe for not hitting TBO FWIW. As far as the relationship between peak EGT, power setting, and where to avoid both detonation margins and get the most life out of your engine, check out this article: https://www.savvyaviation.com/red-box-red-fin/ . The TLDR is: above 75% power, run full rich (this is also what Lycoming who made the engine recommends...). At 75% power, don't go leaner than 150deg ROP. At 65% power, you can basically run the mixture wherever you want. Some nuances to that, but that's a good rule of thumb to get started. What I would recommend is to find a Mooney CFI in your area and go on a XC flight with them, they can teach you engine management techniques for your airplane in different phases of flight and help answer these questions specific to your equipment.

@OGBPilot That's a great looking Mooney! Who did the paint job?

When I teach transition students, I teach this flow: Before Takeoff, left-to-right: Fuel pump on Landing light on Fuel on the fullest tank Cowl flaps open Mixture full rich Prop full Gear area clear Flaps set I have them physically run their hand from the johnson bar down to the floor and then look to confirm nothing is there. It's kept me out of trouble!

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2446769&s-type=aircraft Just to share another example of why an E in the mid-$100k range isn't unreasonable, here is a $215K M20J with a low-time engine, nice interior, nice panel. An E at $160k with all the J-mods equipped comparably is a $55k savings, and if you never needed space in the rear seats, you win.

This is great advice!! Mooneys are precision airplanes and they respect precision flying, in exchange, you'll have a very capable rocket ship that handles like a sports car. As a CFI who does Mooney transition training, that learning curve feels a little tough in the beginning for new private pilots, but once you start it starts to click, you can't wipe the grin off your face . It'll feel like drinking from the fire hose again, but take your time with your CFI and enjoy the ride.

Well-put! This was exactly my point, but put better .

You literally just had someone in this thread who spent $140k on an F . An F is a slower E.

Hey Greg, you're nearby so let me know if you ever want to talk Es! I'm at SGR. Probably biased as I have an E that I have painstakingly restored and modernized and would argue is one of the nicest out there . I don't think the J should be that much of a price-step up from an E, unless you really need that extra space, a modded E is basically the same performance wise and is more nimble and crisp to fly, in my opinion. Maybe 5% more between the 2. Johnson Bar gear is its own value IMO. There have been a few E's in the last 12 months that have sold for $160k range. The J comparison isn't truly fair unless you're looking at apples to apples, a J and an E with the same panel, engine times, interior, condition, etc. Usually when I see that state, the J is more expensive even when an E is in the mid-100s. Here's a $140k J with good avionics and low-time engine but poor interior: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2443724&s-type=aircraft Here's a $165k J with good avionics and low time engine and decent interior: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2445319&s-type=aircraft Here's a $158k J with good avionics, mid-time engine and decent interor: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2446564&s-type=aircraft So what I would take away from that is if you have an E with good avionics, low-time engine and good interior, you're looking at $150s-160k, benchmarking against the $165 and $158k. If one of those goes down (e.g. good avionics, decent interior, mid-time engine, etc.) then $140ks seem to be reasonable. I don't see any E on the market that has low-time engine + good avionics + good interior, I have a '65 M20E with 170hrs on a freshly overhauled engine done by a well-known engine shop with a freshly overhauled prop, brand new non-AD hub, all new accessories (firewall-forward was done at the overhaul), SureFly e-mag, GAMI injectors, fine-wire plugs, new alternator, new voltage regulator, new battery. New panel, Garmin G5s, GMA345, STEC 30 AP, 430W completely overhauled by Garmin, JPI 930 engine monitor with CIES Fuel Senders, all new switches, wiring, circuit breakers, custom cut flat, one-piece panel. I have a brand new full Executive interior done by AeroComfort that included all new soundproofing, inertial reel seatbelts, custom stitching pattern, with every piece of the interior being redone. The entire electrical system is new. The plane has all LED lights, bladders, the electric step mod, one-piece windshield, gets flown 125+ hours a year and is meticulously maintained. When I had it valued after all the work was done to figure out what I needed to insure it for, it was north of $170k. That's obviously not me getting my money back .

I think this changes depending on if you have electric gear vs. manual gear and hydraulic flaps. The manual gear is very very hard to get up if you're fast, and slowly retracting the hydraulic flaps can be tricky, so on a go-around what I teach is go full power, establish a positive rate of climb, get the gear up first, pitch for Vy and climb-out, then incrementally get the flaps up.

Around 6hrs / 1 qt. The engine is leak-free, that was the first thing we checked . I emailed Mooney and they sent the original drawing for the breather, here it is for reference. Mine is certainly the right shape, though it's hard to determine how far out into the airflow it's supposed to stick, I followed up with Mooney to ask.

Never more than 6.

The whistle hole is above the cowl exit. The vent is S-shaped, with the top part curving forward and the bottom part curving aft, it extends beyond the firewall a good few inches. Here’s a pic, ignore the zip tied hose, that’s for something else we were doing. Yes, there is a dribble of oil from the vent after flight, and the inside of the vent is wet with clean oil.

Reviving this thread. My '65 M20E with 165hrs SMOH has an oily nose-gear door and left-side of the belly, we suspect from the breather. The cylinder compressions are all perfect, literally 80/80 on every cylinder. The oil remains clean and doesn't darken quickly and everything looks healthy on the borescope, so seems very unlikely to be cylinder blow-by. We suspect it could be the position of the breather tube that is causing a bit of a vacuum to pull oil out. Bob's post referenced in this post no longer has pictures in it, and I cannot find anything on Mooney or Lycoming sites explaining how it should be installed. For those who tackled this in this thread - any pics, documentation? Did anyone get the exact dimensions from Mooney?

Also have a 65E, honestly, the takeoff trim position has never "felt good" in my plane, so I trimmed it to my own visual setting where it flies off the runway better. It will go full up/full down though. You can always back this up by looking out at the elevators, the elevator should be level with the tail in the takeoff position.