khedrei

Perhaps I'm a bit confused. When I mentioned having a 7 inch on the right side as an MFD I was thinking the MFD would simply display charts, airport info, traffic and weather on a map, etc. I thought that if the screen is configured for EIS then it is the EIS only and nothing else. So maybe I need a lesson on what the capabilities and limitations of an MFD actually are. I'm quite new to this...That's the reason why I wanted to use the 750 for all that stuff. It will display traffic and charts and whatever else i need. Then I can use a 7 inch screen to dedicate to EIS, no? Also, my question about having the 7 inch screen on the right side displaying EIS was more a legality question. Can the engine instruments be displayed that far away from the pilot and not on an angle like my circle gauges are currently beside the breakers so they face the pilot. My avionics guy wasnt sure about whether that was legal or not and considering every set up I have seen with a dedicated EIS screen whether it be a Garmin or JPI they are all close to the main PFD on the pilot side. So could I have the G3X 10 inch on the pilot side set up as PFD with EIS and also have the 7 inch on the right side set up as MFD/EIS and then I could use my 10 inch in full screen PFD mode and get ride of the engine info strip? Or would it always need to be displayed?

Thanks for the response John and thanks flyingcheesehead. You have given lots of info. I was told by my avionics guy that the TXI has a couple options when it comes to engine instrument display. For example, if I do the 10 inch, during the cruise phase I can have the full screen mode which will delay basic stuff in a very small bar on the right. Giving me what i need but no major detail. Then there was a full EIS bar which takes about 1/3 of the screen. I dont know what it will be capable of displaying for a 231 but I assume it would give all the important stuff you mentioned like TIT, EGT, FF, CDT, etc. I suppose I will have to do more research. I was planning to do one 10 inch TXI on the pilot side to do PFD and EIS, use my GTN 750 for an MFD and traffic and mount an android or IPAD on the right side in a dock which could also give me EIS or MFD. Or would it? I think with the FS 510 I can do all that. Another problem with the G3X is that the Flightstream wont work to update it wirelessly but the TXI will. I'm doing a 750 , a 650 and and spending 2k on FS510 so it would make sense to take advantage of it. Plus if I went with the G3X I had the idea of doing the 10 and 7 inch package and mounting the 7 inch on the right side instead of the IPAD. Which would put me closer to the same price point. He offered me quite the discount on the TXI. but I'd be paying full pop for the G3X. Does anyone know if an EIS screen can be put on the right side of the radio stack?

So I have a question in response to the benefits of the TXi vs the G3X. I am having trouble with my decision on where I might want to go with my upgrade this fall and since I have no experience with either, and you seem to know what you are talking about. You listed the features/benefits that the TXI has over the G3X. Are there any features that the G3X has that the TXI doesnt. Or things that it does better? It will drive the auto pilot for one. Anything else that would be a one up on the TXI besides the lower price?

I'm curious about the VNAV. In Garmins video/sales pitch on it way back they said the VNAV is for future expansion/options. So yours works and is fully functional? Next I would ask what exactly is the VNAV capability? I'm under the impression a VNAV capability will allow you to follow virtical climb and decent profiles to meet altitude xing restrictions on SIDS or STARS or ones given by ATC. Am I misunderstanding this? In essence, allows the enroute portion to have veritical guidance as opposed to coupling to an LPV approach and having that be the only vertical guidance it is capable of.

Its posted in the G3X thread. All the mooneys on it I think.

I'm hoping not. He obviously hasn't done a Mooney yet. I got the impression that all the wiring and install for a 2 axis system including hooking up to the G5s and GPS and installing the unit in the stack would run 80 hours. So 40 hours per servo. But is adding 2 more servos going to take 40 hours each? I doubt it. Hopefully the bill won't be too high. He seems very fair so far in his quotes on the rest of the job.

Pretty sure the servo on my K is in the left wing near where the push rod on the bottom of the aileron enters the wing. My avionics guy is guessing 40 hours per servo for mine. Seems a bit high but we will see.

Am I really the first one to mention it on here?? GFC-500 now certified on M, R and S models. Not sure when they updated their website but just got the email from my avionics guy a few minutes ago. Hopefully they will finish the K soon so mine can go in.

Great news indeed. I'm happy for all the short body owners. Hopefully it doesnt actually take 12 months to start the program. Rally the troops. Flood them with emails!

It seems to me like people are trying to compare apples to oranges. Yes, you need 2 G5's to run this autopilot so it's only fair to include them. But your old BK autopilot needed an AI to run it correct? That is a legitimate question, I don't know how the old stuff worked. I assume you also needed a nice King mechanical HSI as well to be able to track an ILS, or at the very least an indicator with a GS. What's a good mechanical HSI worth, $10k?? So yes, you are replacing those old vacuum instruments with new electric ones that will last much longer, but to have your old autopilot working, you also NEEDED some form of those instruments so it would be unfair to include the G5's in today's pricing of the Garmin but leave out those things when comparing to your legacy autopilot. If a person today already has 2 G5's then this autopilot is worth $7k plus an extra trim servo if that's what you want to compare to a KFC200. Just make sure your BK system has one if you are going to compare it to the GFC500's price with a 3rd servo. So tell me, what was the cost, 30 years ago of a BK autopilot, a decent vacuum AI and a mechanical HSI worth? Even if it was $25k installed in 1990 (which it was probably more), that $25K in 1990 dollars is now $40k+ adjusted for inflation. Forget the above post of the jacked up costs due to low availability, just take into account what $25k back then is worth today by the shear value of a dollar. For sure you need to price in labour. $8-10k in labour for a full install I would think. Extra for Yaw servo. So yes, material cost is 13k for a 3 axis system including 2 G5's. I don't quite see how that is a lot of money... maybe I am missing something. Again, I go back to my previous post a few pages back and say, if this is not an upgrade from your current system, don't buy it! You will save $25k. Personally I'm drooling over it and can't wait to ditch my old single axis Centry that hardly works. I couldn't sign up fast enough. Garmin is probably sick of the emails I keep sending them asking for updates.

I'm not quite sure what "expense" you are referring to. The system is 7k with 2 servos. Yes, you have to buy at least one G5, two if you want a more capable system. How much was a comparible KFC150 back in the day adjusted for inflation?

If it is true that a pilot leak is not part of the IFR cert then it seems the guys who did mine were just looking for some extra work. Fits with the theme of my annual which was done at the same time. Not being open about what is a "must be done" , "should be done" or " nice to be done" item and the costs associated with each thing. Partially my fault for not demanding things. But as a new owner they can smell fresh meat I guess. $1000 for a pitot static cert. They just did it and sent the bill. Didn't even give me the option. Mine was the pitot drain at the wing root. 4 hours to re and re and clean it and tighten. And the interior had already been removed. You win some you lose some I guess, but that's not how you build lasting trusting relationships between mechanics and owners.

You can add my name to that small list. The planned list anyway. And now I'm wondering if I need the external control unit. We postponed the install to wait for the GFC500. Is it true that as long ad I have that I wont really need the external control unit. What's so difficult about not having it?

Sorry, It's a 1980. Yes I do have a standby vacuum system so I will test that out and also check for the cable in the wheel well. Thanks for the tips. Does anyone know how extensive the conversion to electric is? I know the price of the kits, but is the install easy because the holes and mounting areas are already there? Same size and configuration etc?

Reviving an old thread. I thought mine were vacuum powered which disappointed me because I wanted to go all electric and ditch the pump. So they will not deploy without the engine running, but the are red in colour and have a circuit breaker of 2 or 3 amps. Is that simply for the activation switch? Is it possible they are electric? Would it say on the STC?

Sucks. What is the outcome of getting stuck with a stolen unit? I know of not being able to get service from Garmin. I guess you couldn't sell it and also have to disclose to the next aircraft owner and essentially you lose what you paid for it. But you can still use it for all its functionality as long as it's working no?

All correct. Wasnt sure what the above post was getting to. Misunderstood.

You dont HAVE to fly to the missed approach point before deciding to go missed. But if you dont have the field, it's your best chance of getting it.

Have the people that have lent Garmin their airplanes heard any news? So much for end of 2018 for the M model.... Q1 for the K... I guess the shutdown might be playing a part in the certification.

Huh is right... Well, since you went there.... I will say that it seems to me you are making up problems. I will certainly not comment on your abilities as a pilot because I have no idea. If I had to place a bet, I'd guess you are quite capable. I don't think you are silly for wanting an auto pilot that has the capability to fly a coupled ILS without GPS signal. Not at all. But then this isn't the one for you. Keep the one you have if you are so happy with it, or if you want one that can do absolutely everything, then pay the 30k+ for a new STEC (I'm not sure, but I think that one can do everything. Correct me if I am wrong). Garmin never claimed this one could. Everyone on here (myself included) simply assumed it did but didn't read the fine print. They also never claimed that it was an upgrade from any specific auto pilot that is currently in operation. I don't know what you currently have, but does it have auto trim? Does it have a yaw damper? Does it have the ability to do IAS climbs? Does it have a safety feature that will level the airplane from an unusual attitude even if the auto pilot is turned off? Will it allow you to hand steer the airplane without disengaging? Will it fly an overshoot, fly a missed approach procedure climbing to the proper altitude, follow the way points to the holding fix and place you into a hold all at the push of a button and a jam on the throttle? If yours already does all this, then why are you looking to upgrade? This auto pilot isn't for everyone and I am not claiming to know exactly what market Garmin is trying to target, but it seems to me that they are going for people with nothing, or people like me who have a single axis Centry which doesn't work half the time, and the other half will have me on edge wondering if it will randomly bank 30 decrees for no reason. If you have a G5 you can be out the door for $10k including labour for a very capable 2-axis auto pilot with envelope protection and an emergency level button. That's a far cry from other options out there at $30k +. But, they also market to people who want the entire package like I mentioned above, and you are still under $25k including labour. The real question is, are we pissed off because this auto pilot can't fly a stand along ILS if GPS is down, or are we pissed off at ourselves because we thought it could and didn't read the details? Again I ask, how often will this EVER actually happen. Remember, your GPS screen going out isn't necessarily a GPS failure, and because the G5 has it's own GPS as long as the G5 is working I have a feeling there still wouldn't be an issue. To me this seems so much like a non issue I am even laughing about the fact that I thought it was when I first read it. The part about making up problems in my first post was more or less a joke and not meant to offend anyone. That is why I mentioned that comedians say stuff like that, but there is some truth to it. I stop myself all the time when I get irritated by things in life. I live in the western world, I have food every day, and I fly my own airplane. Life is pretty good. Is this really something worth being upset about? Is this ACTUALLY a problem. If it is, don't buy it. But don't complain about it. My 2 cents

I will certainly agree with this statement. Like many here, I fully believed that it would have been capable of tracking a ground based signal regardless of GPS. Garmin could have done a better job making this fact/limitation very clear.

I felt I should weigh in here and ask if it's just me, or are people complaining about nothing? First of all, how many people here would regularly go IFR flying in hard IMC without GPS? I know it's possible, but if you knew GPS was down and had a trip planned, would you still go? Next part of the question would be, how often do you fly ground based approaches? This is a legitimate question because most of the airports in Canada that I would fly into are fairly small and do not have ILS or LOC approaches. That leaves me with RNAV which almost every airport has. If GPS was down in low IMC I would be on my way to my alternate anyway. I was a bit taken back when I started reading this thread as I was also surprised that Garmin would allow this lack of capability. And I will agree that it certainly is a lack of capability. But the more I thought about it the more I realized that it really wouldn't matter 99.9% of the time. Possibly 99.9999% of the time. It seems that there are some that are confused about what happens if you lose GPS. The auto pilot will still function in HDG and VS mode. Meaning you use that approach plate and get the heading that it tells you to fly on final. Use that little chart on the side of the approach plate that tells you what VS to descend at based on your GS. Then, just fly to the IF and intercept the LOC and Glidslope and plug those numbers into the A/P. Watch the needles and adjust a couple degrees right or left as needed for wind and 100ft/m up or down accordingly to stay on the glideslope. Am I missing something here? Or are there lots of people who can't do that? That's a legitimate question by the way. The way I see it, I wouldn't be flying in IMC without having done at least a few approaches completely by hand in the last couple months, nevermind with an A/P in manual mode. In my opinion, if you can't HAND FLY an ILS down to absolute minimums and execute a safe landing you should never be leaving and planning to arrive when the ceiling at your destination is forecast that low. Remember, forgetting about GPS, your auto pilot can fail at any time and you would be stuck hand flying it, so you better know how. In fact, (I'm just speculating from common sense here) I would venture to guess that the likelihood of your A/P malfunctioning AT SOME POINT during your flight is more likely than you losing GPS signal WHILE you are on an ILS approach. In response to one of the posts above regarding figuring out the winds if GPS failed during the approach; you would have to do that anyway if your A/P failed. That's what an overshoot is for and that's why you flight planned enough fuel for it. And yes, good thing we are not flying commercially. I doubt there are many Mooney pilots flying their Mooney for hire, and if they are, they have other auto pilot options. Or, they could use this one and just not be able to depart if GPS is down that day. While I agree it's a bit disappointing that we won't be getting THE WHOLE PACKAGE with capability to revert back to a more primitive system if the new state of the art one fails. BUT, I would offer a bet that out of all the people who install one of these systems, if I came back in 10 years to ask how many people were affected negatively by this I wouldn't even need to take off my mittens to count them. It's almost like we are more concerned that this A/P doesn't have absolutely all capabilities than we are with the likelihood that we may have to struggle to shoot an approach in manual mode because of a GPS outage. It's like an EGO thing rather than an actual problem. There are comedians that talk about this sort of thing... "In America they don't have real problems so they make ones up". First world problems I say. Just my two cents. Not trying to step on anyone.

This is awfully disappointing news. I have my upgrade scheduled for March. G5s, audio, xponder and GPS. Was hoping to be able to do the a/p at the same time. Boy... these first world problems...

I have a feeling that has more to do with the fact that the 440's are extremely affordable and drop in replacements for the 430 than it has to do with whether it is better than the 650 or not. I don't have either of them... yet. So I can't comment on how good either of them are, I'm just pointing out my opinion as to why that might be. The people that buy the 440's are generally the budget oriented ones. And ones that already had a 430 which made the upgrade even easier. Why would they get rid of it now...?

+1 on that. I would bet it's worth the extra what... $1500?