glafaille

Ben: Do you own a plane now? Mooney's are transportation machines and therefore can usually be found in locales from which their owners require transportation. In other words, they can often be found in small, off the beaten path, airports many miles from any airline service. That's why people buy airplanes and especially Mooneys. Therefore, if you own an airplane now, your search will be much easier because you can travel to where your prey can be found. If you are forced to rely on airlines and rental cars, your search will be very time consuming, expensive and challenging. Does your job allow sufficient time off for the search? Your ideal plane may very well be out there, but if you can't get to it in time, it might as well be on the other side of the planet.

I doubt he was involved in the thousands of details involved concerning condition, history, maintenance status, configuration etc. Someone else did all the legwork and research and once a suitable candidate found, Trump jumped in to do the deal. Makes perfect sense as it is his money. I was once charged with locating, purchasing and outfitting a B727 for corpoate use. The process took well over a year and involved potential aircraft from all over the world. Ultimately we found a former Lufthansa B727-100 that was unique for our mission. It took weeks just to determine how much the max gross weight could be increased. Part 121 aircraft are often customized to the needs of each original purchasers specifications. Gross weight, engine manufacturer, engine thrust, fuel capacity, seating configurations and avionics are among the items modified to suit by Boing. Finding just the right aircraft with the required specs is often many times more difficult than finding a nice Mooney.

It's possible that you are lucky. It's also possible you have been blessed with a talent for finding airplanes. It's possible that you live in or near an area rich with airplanes. It's possible you don't seek 50 year old airplanes and expect them to be in good condition. It's possible you are in a financial condition where aircraft flaws or mispricing is of no consequence. Who knows which? However, I am very happy that the process seems as easy to you as hitting a 300 yard drive is for Tiger Woods. I wish I had the knack for both! But for some of us the process is not so simple and fraught with financial peril. As in many things, it takes those without talent a bit longer to learn and accomplish a complex task. I hope that when I find myself back in the airplane market you will agree to help find the airplane I need at the price I can afford. As before, I will have cash in hand and pen at the ready.

When I was looking, I left no stone unturned. I checked, daily, all the sources listed above. Sometimes the plane you seek is just not available at a certain point in time. We must realize that the Mooney market is finite. It's quite possible that a suitable aircraft will not become available for several months. Expecting to find the right deal, on the right 50 year old airplane, with the right equipment, the right maintenance history, and in the right condition, within 45 days is not realistic. One should expect a search to last 6 months or more, unless lady luck visits.

Smlynarczyk: YUP!! I ran into your exact problems in my Mooney hunt, after 6 months of futility, ended up with something else. Finding a nice Mooney at a fair price and in a reasonable amount of time is treasure hunt indeed, largely dependant on luck. At my field a fellow has a beautiful E model. Searching for a pearl of wisdom, I asked how he found it. He told me he wasn't even thinking about buying an airplane. He was just driving by the airport, stopped in, and a guy landed in the airplane, and just walked up and asked him if he would like to buy his plane. Dang! Not fair! It's often better to be lucky than good.

All inclusive resorts tend to be in easily accessible locales. I go to Exuma frequently and can suggest the Peace and Plenty Hotel in Georgetown Bahamas as a more reasonable choice. Exuma also has a Sandals resort though I have never stayed there. The Bahamas is general tends to be expensive due in large part because everything from apples to fuel for the islands electrical grid must be delivered by boat from Miami.

I officially went Mooney last time but the market was too lean. Couldn't find one within a reasonable amount of time at a fair price that even remotely met the standards presented above. Right now I am not seriously looking. But if the right one happens to present itself, I'm not opposed to selling the Tiger and replacing it with a Mooney. Certainly not in a hurry. Besides, it's a whole lot easier to find a plane if you have a plane. Mooneys tend to reside in out of the way places, and the best way to travel to see one is by private aircraft.

So here was my wish list for a 1965 or newer M20C, and expected price to pay, posted here on mooneyspace. You gents tell me if you think I was unreasonable. No corrosion Low to mid- time engine and prop Last Overhaul by reputable shop Good Autopilot - Stec or similar, altitude hold preferred Bladder tanks or total reseal within last 10 years Basic but recent avionics - I don't need and don't care to maintain the whiz-bang stuff - I have an Ipad Instruments arranged in "6 pack" order Excellent maintenance history - Service Center or FBO Serviceable paint and interior Speed Mods - Looking for 150 Knot cruise Engine monitor with fuel flow and carb temp a plus 1965 or newer - Someone told me engine access is easier with later models. Less than $55,000 I know it will be difficult to find a plane that hits every point but if you have something close, lets talk about it.

Obviously the aircraft purchasing process is easier for some than for others. Personally, I find it a very unpleasant process and a huge consumer of time. I don't enjoy shopping for houses, cars or boats either, and for many of the same reasons. Seriously, I don't have much patience for most sellers. I expect a seller to be knowledgeable about an aircraft they have been flying around for the past decade. I think this is where my requirements may be unrealistic. I expect too much from sellers. I don't consider myself a tire kicker and I hate wasting other peoples time, but dang it, don't put it up for sale if you can't tell me whats in the panel, the hours on the engine and airframe, can't provide pictures of the plane and copies of the logbooks, can't tell me if you have all the STCs and 337s, or who did your last annual. I'm happy that Paul and others are able to buy and sell aircraft in a timely manner and find the process efficient, fast and pleasant. In my case I had the cash in hand (55 AMUs), knew what I wanted (M20C), but at the time I was looking there weren't any to be had that fit the bill. Interestingly, I recently saw one that I was seriously considering, but at the time was WAY over priced, the owner recently dropped the price $15,000 (about 6 months after I exited the market). I would have snapped it up at the new price, too bad it wasn't correctly priced to begin with. Someone got a very fair deal on a nice M20C.

And the current inventory of available aircraft included at least one that met your requirements. A little luck, and experience with the process also helps.

Speaking from the selling side, I agree. If you have a good airplane, you are knowledgeable and forthright about it's condition, and have it fairly priced, then I believe you could readily sell it within 45 days. BUT, from the buyers perspective, there are VERY FEW sellers that meet the above criteria. Even fewer that meet the criteria AND are offering an aircraft that meets the buyers needs of equipment, condition, maintenance and history. The point is that it's often much more difficult and vastly more time consuming and costly to find the right airplane than to sell the one you own now. If the price is right, any plane will sell quickly. I suspect that there are more than a few owners that would like to upgrade, but are reluctant to do so because they don't want the "double whammy hassle" of selling their plane and buying another. Of course, if one can afford to buy the replacement BEFORE selling the existing aircraft, the process is much easier.

Or better yet ask him to describe the plane he is looking for, then YOU will know if your plane is the one or not. Someone that has been looking for 2 years KNOWS EXACTLY what he wants and should be able to describe it to you in detail. If you have it, sell it to him. If you don't, politely hang up and move on. The problem I have is very FEW owners know exactly what they have, the maintenance/damage history of their plane, corrosion history, maintenance status, cruise true airspeed, status of modifications 337/STC and so forth and the related paperwork. Some refuse to disclose even the simplest of squawks, never mind stuff like severe hangar rash or inop fuel gauges. "Everything works" they'll say, then after you've spent money on travel to see the plane, then you hear "oh yea, that worked yesterday". I've traveled to examine "Perfect" planes with wrinkled fuselage skins, obvious corrosion in the tail and wheel wells, fuel leaks and more. It's appalling how many owners think they have an IFR legal GPS when they do not! Ignorance on the part of the seller is a real problem and makes the buyer wish the seller had listed it with a broker. I can see an airplane search lasting WAY longer than 45 days, especially for older planes.

In a situation such as Bermuda they usually allow landings on taxiways and sometimes closed runways at the pilots option.

I guess the only way to know for sure is to go fly one. It's surprising how many folks don't have a clue how fast their airplane is, or how to fly it for best performance. Some guys remove wheel pants to make life easier and don't care about speed, some want to save gas and pull the power back, some fly planes that are way out of rig, some guys put a climb prop on their plane and then wonder why it flies slower. Typical answers when I ask owners how fast their airplane flies: "It depends which way the wind is blowing, sometimes it goes 120 knots and sometimes 160", or "It usually says about 130 on the GPS", or "I usually see 120 on the gauge". Indeed the guy I bought my plane from told me it goes 125 knots, seemed strange as most reports I read reported 135 knots or better cruise. I bought the plane, fly it by the book and I get 135 knots to 140 knots true at the optimum altitude. I'm not saying that you or your brother in law, do or say any of these things, just that it might be fun to see if you can get your brother in law's plane to fly faster or figure out why it's so slow. Maybe a climb prop or flying at the wrong altitude or RPM if it's fixed pitch (could be fixed or constant speed). Maybe that's just the way it is and you are right and all the reports are wrong. I don't know, I've never flown one myself. Just going by what I've read and heard from others that own them. Might be worth some research on the Piper forums. http://www.piperforum.com/showthread.php?t=4541 Seems like several here are of the opinion the OP will be pretty cramped in the Mooney with his expected load.

I think your brother in law either has the power pulled WAY back or he left the anchor out. The reports I see indicate cruise speeds of 135 to 140 knots true. We are talking true airspeed and not indicated, right? https://www.aopa.org/go-fly/aircraft-and-ownership/aircraft-fact-sheets/piper-cherokee-6

Remember that traveling with a baby usually means a lot of other stuff like diaper bags and strollers. Plus babies grow fast and where there is one there is often 2 or 3. The odds of outgrowing a Mooney within a short period is high. I think you need to seriously think about either 6 seats or flying without the dogs.

A Cherokee 6-260 might be just what you need. Same as a Cherokee 6-300 but a bit older, a bit cheaper, a little less power but still plenty for your mission. Not much slower than a C model Mooney, but has 6 seats. Burns a bit more fuel than a Mooney, but cheaper insurance and maintenance. 84 gallons of fuel, 12 to 14 gallons per hour, 135 knots true from what I can tell. http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/17636695/1966-piper-cherokee-6-260

"Barn Finds" do indeed happen, if by the term you mean a killer deal, under market, or "being at the right place at the right time". I think we all know of someone who just happened into an awesome deal, sometimes when they weren't even looking for an airplane. I know of several people that just happened into a deal where they bought the plane well below market. Brokers do it all the time. But you must know a great deal when you see it, have CASH in hand, be willing to buy without benefit of a "Maxwell" pre-buy, have a trusted mechanic willing to travel, and you must be intimate with the market every minute of every day. Most of all you must be willing to take a chance. Some buyers are patient and don't mind waiting for the perfect deal, which may never come, or worse, the airplane they looked at last week was the perfect deal, but they hesitated and missed out. In my case the perfect deal usually comes along just after I bought something that was just good enough. This time I'm ready, I have a cash reserve to buy the perfect Mooney if I see it.

In my case I was VERY MUCH in touch with the market during the 6 months I was actively looking. I knew EVERYTHING there was to know about every Mooney that remotely fit my needs. Each researched airplane represented about 6 to 8 hours each of research of logbooks, ADs, and SBs. Plus each plane was evaluated on three different websites for estimated value, then my own estimate of work to be done to each airplane to make it RIGHT for my needs was applied. ONLY if an aircraft passed this "smell test" AND if the asking price was reasonable, did I decide to travel to actually look at the aircraft in person. All the C models that passed the initial test, that I then visited had major defects not disclosed by the seller that resulted in a spoiled sale. I was not able to visit airplanes more than 500 miles from my home as my job didn't allow extended travel at the time. However, if I owned an airplane I could have cast a wider net. It's expensive to travel to look at airplanes and ultimately I was hamstrug by time and finances to effectively search nation wide. The most valuable resource in an aircraft hunt are the friends here on Mooneyspace. Most of us are happy to assist buyers in the process by looking at planes before you commit to travel, talking to people in the area that might know the aircraft, or providing other logistical support. In the end though, it all comes down to taking a chance in one way or another.

All of us have a different tolerance for old airplane warts. Personally I would not consider any aircraft without complete logs, nor would I buy an aircraft with obvious signs of overstress or multiple corrosion events. I will tolerate minor hail damage, gear up landings, shotgun panels and ancient engine overhauls if the price is adjusted to reflect the flaws. And there lies the problem in a nutshell. Each of us has to put a price on the value or discount to the value of an aircraft with a variety of flaws. We each valus such things differently. As a buyer, the only way to REALLY feel comfortable with a big purchase of a 50 year old airplane, with known flaws, is to actually go out and look at lots of similar planes to get a feel for what the market has to offer and at what price. The reality is that many people that want to buy an older aircraft may never find one with a set of attributes and flaws that are acceptable to them at a price they are willing to pay. A big part of what allows some to accept the risks of old airplanes, is emotion. A heightened desire to own a Mooney will often push us over the hump of all the flaws. In my case my desire to own an aircraft was greater than my desire to own only a Mooney, so I ended up with something else. I would still like to buy a Mooney, but now that my airplane "want" is satisfied, I am in no hurry to change planes unless the RIGHT deal comes along.

Eman- Don't be bothered by those that claim that there are plenty of planes out there. Those that claim that it's easy to find a plane are usually not hamstrung by a budget, have low expectations, are more trusting than the rest, or just plain lucky. It pays to be at the right place at the right time, too bad we can't arrange to make that happen when we want. Indeed there are a lot of planes for sale, unfortunately, most of them have issues. Sometimes it's an oddball owner who doesn't really want to sell his plane or hasn't a clue what he owns, how it's been maintained, or what it's worth. But usually it's missing logbooks, shotgun panels, 30 year old overhauls, corrosion, fuel leaks, 360 channel nav/coms, stupid high pricing, and the list goes on. These are old, old planes and most have been subject to neglect, abuse, and poor maintenance for some if not most of their life. It's almost impossible to find a 50 year old plane without any warts for $40,000. You may have to look for a very long time or compromise. Many times a plane pops up and it's located in the middle of nowhere, difficult to access, and an elderly owner without a clue how to email out copies of the logbooks. Much time and treasure can be spent chasing a pig in a poke. Airplane shopping would be so much easier if only you had a plane! I feel your pain. I looked HARD for a C model Mooney for 6 months, my budget was $50,000. I finally gave up and finally found something else good enough in my neighborhood. I'm still watching for a nice C or E model myself, but it has to be very close to what I want, even closer to where I live, and at a price very close to what I want to pay. In the meantime, I have something to fly that is nearly as fast as a stock C model, and I'm now ready to fly anywhere to look at the perfect "C". Stick to your guns, it's your money.

If I could legally install a WAAS GPS antenna for my ADS-B install like that, it would cut the install price by at least 1/2. Might be worth further research.

Thanks Steven! Just the info I was looking for. Looks like I won't have anything to worry about and can mount 2 GPS antennas relatively close to each other. Glare shield mounting is no longer a consideration. Problem solved. Mooneyspace is the best!

Thanks for the info. I've been researching ADS-B out. My current legacy IFR legal non WAAS GPS antenna is mounted on the top of my fuselage. I've read that a GPS antenna should be mounted at least 2 feet from any other GPS antenna. If I add an all in one ADS-B solution like a Stratus ESG, there is not a suitable location anywhere on top of the fuselage that is 2 ft away from the other antenna. I do have a large glaresheld on my Grumman Tiger. I'm trying to find out if that location will work. It seems the glareshield is a popular mounting location for the experimental crowd. I'm wondering if it will legally work for me.

I realize that most Mooneys have a small glareshield. However if the glareshield was expansive, is there a reason why a GPS WAAS antenna could not be mounted there? Seems like it would make for an inexpensive install.