M20Js with few STC/ F 337 for JAA import ?

[PapaPapa]

Hello again !

So i was wondering about financing an N-reg aircraft outside US for an non-citizen...

 

But an other option is to import one into JAA/EASA "rule-world". That means making it comply with these rules.

Mainstrem STCs possibly exist in JAA/EASA world (say Garmin GNS 430 or 530 for example), but most other will not have been submitted to JAA/EASA and therefore would have to me removed from the aircraft which would then may require new instruments based on JAA/EASA STCs

So my second question would be...Do you think that finding such an aircraft would be possible ?

Thanks in advance for your advice

Pierre

 

PS : my search is not for today or even tomorrow, i'm currently only exploring options and their inherent liabilities/issues.

PPS : there's of course the obvious option of buying an already JAA/EASA registered aircraft.... but i think there a re much less :-)

[Magnum]

I would first check the European market, even when you want a N-reg. The market in the US is much bigger, but you will have to spend some extra money: The ferryflight will be between 5-10K and you will have to pay VAT (15-25% depending where you live, even when you keep her N-reg). If you want an EASA registration, it is a good idea to take the inspector with you to the US for the prebuy. The traveling cost will be a couple of AMUs. But you have to make sure that you get STCs for everything that is installed.  You'll need a Mode S transponder, 406 Mhz ELT and if you want to fly IFR a DME. Many DMEs are not EASA certified (IMHO only the King KN62A-01 or the KN63). The EASA registration will be another couple of AMUs. If you add up all these costs it might be cheaper to buy a Mooney here. It depends on how much you want to spend for a Mooney.

You can check the following sites for ads:

http://www.planecheck.com/

http://www.aeromarkt.net/

http://www.avbuyer.com/

To compare the US prices you can check

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/

http://www.controller.com

http://www.aso.com/

There are N-reg in Europe for sale, sometimes with the trust. What model are looking for?

 

[Vref]

Hi Papa, Magnus

I am from Belgium

I totally agree with Magnus. Myself I went on a different route I bought six moths ago a damaged M20J 1978 model which is undergoing a major repair overhaul in Hungary for the moment but when finished the aircraft will be stationed @ EBST ( this will happen the next month hopefully). The advantage is I can customise the looks and interior to my whishes, plus the aircraft is fully dissasembled so inspected for corrosion, full inspection, new insulation etc.... The last six months a learned a lot about mooneys....You may find some pictures about my restoration project in my gallery...

A good advise try always to remove the side panel from the Pilot lower side as this is the place for corrsosion on older M20J's, often caused by insulation which is sucking up humidity...

Going the US route may look cheaper with the $ versus euro but when adding all the stuff , VAT, customs, ferry cost etc..plus  BRNAV equipment required in europe in order to fly IFR ...it might become much more expensive..

in europe:

2 altimeters

DME, ADF, VOR , mode S and 406Mhz ELT etc...

You may always PM me for more info..

rgds

Luc

[Parker_Woodruff]

http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?mainaction=posts&forumid=3&threadid=1545

Mine has such mainstream STCs and not much else, but I would think logistics costs would be prohibitive.

[PapaPapa]

Thanks for the replies !

 

by the way, what is an "AMU" ?

@Parker : thanks for pointing your aircraft. it looks exactly what you say it is :-)

Sweet aircraft with some Airframe time. But unfortunately as i said, i'm not looking right now and it's somewhat over my budget.

But that's the kind of aircrafts i'd love to find when actually looking for one (a bit older to be cheaper :-p )

 

@Vref : that's a route i don't think i would take, too afraid for the reselling value of the aircratft

 

@magnus : a M20J probably older than 85 to keep within budget range

 

Anyway thanks for pointing the different things i have to think about if importing (keeping it N or not...)

[Barry]

AMU = Aircraft Monetary Unit = $1000 US

[Vref]

Well IMHO if your thinking bying something older then 85 then surely I would pop out all furnishings and inpection holes and go for a full airframe, fuel tank inspection...

I am not afraid for the re-sell value of my bird ..Bear in mind that this includes a full tank re-seal,speed kit, new-insulation,EDM800, upholstery, new primer and paint, new prop, crankshaft and an excellent avionics package inclding a KFC150 A/P system etc.. which is all very expensive to post install or do later on...

All older mooneys tend to leak fuel....somewhere (Its better the aircraft was not cleaned so at least you can see the fuel traces...)

I have a professional background in aviation maintenance but I understand your reaction....

In europe if you want an IFR m20J between 78-85 (I would not buy a 77 bird because the early ones have a diffrent throttle, speed restriction on the gear extension speed) count on paying between min 85 and 120 K euro for a mid time aircraft.with some descent avionics.

An other option could be to find a mid time engine /airframe combination with old VFR avionics and go for an avionics upgrade on a step by step basis...( though a good A/P system is very expensive to post install)

In Aachen Merzbruck there is maintenance company Westflug they are specializing in mooneys, I know they are refurbishing an older mooney which will go on the market...Friendly people to talk too...

The only downside of a 1978 bird is that on the rear you can't install a shoulder harness as the airframe slightly changed from 79-80 birds where an addtional tube is available for installing a schoulder harness.

Bottomline if you want to buy an older m20J  you'll need to do a lot of homework so you now what to look for when selecting an aircraft.

You may always PM me for any question. Magnus was already a great help for me too..;-)

Cheers

Luc

[Magnum]

You can get a '78 - '85 well below 85k Euros. But it will take some time to find the right one (expect at least 6 month). On my airfield a '83 201 with midtime engine and good King avionics (including weather radar) was sold for 63K, and another '87 201 with 2000hrs TT and runout engine for 65K. For 120K you can get a '88 252 with new engine.

Parkers Mooney is really nice, but you won't get the STCs for free. You will have to pay a couple of AMUs to the STC holder of the G500.

[Vref]

Magnus,

Sure you can find cheaper ones everything depends on what you want.....

Having surveyed the mooney market for more then a year in the US and Europe for a M20J ...I doubt that the 63K euro M20J mid time engine came with all the wisstles and bells and shiny interior and corrosion treatments (maybe I am wrong)

Knowing the cost of an IO360 engine overhaul....I seriously talked this option through with people of LOMA air in Belgium (close to wher I live).  They are the biggest engine overhauler in Europe for the moment (more then 100 Lyc&Conti engines in six moths time), you end up with 110 K euro to get the engine overhauled plus work....

IMHO and experience from my previous aircraft  the engine/prop condition is the most crucial thing all the rest is a compromise and can be controlled in cost an what your ambitions are...

So yes you can find a 70K euro bird ....but it will be a compromise...but again...maybe I am wrong..;-)

In Germany you can fly the engine/prop on condition, which may help also.....

rgds

Luc

[fantom]

Always a major issue is just how much of a "discount" is aggravation and uncertainty worth to a buyer, and how much of a "premium" is the buyer willing to pay for a bird with less needed work. 

Different for each of us, with no absolute right or wrong answer.

[PapaPapa]

Quote: fantom

Always a major issue is just how much of a "discount" is aggravation and uncertainty worth to a buyer, and how much of a "premium" is the buyer willing to pay for a bird with less needed work. 

Different for each of us, with no absolute right or wrong answer.

[PapaPapa]

Quote: Magnum

Parkers Mooney is really nice, but you won't get the STCs for free. You will have to pay a couple of AMUs to the STC holder of the G500.

[KLRDMD]

Quote: Barry

AMU = Aircraft Monetary Unit = $1000 US

[Magnum]

Quote: PapaPapa

 i did not get this one ....

if i were to buy it and the install is done, then i suppose STC is paid for in the install process no ?

 

@ fantom : thanks for this new currency i did not know about ;-)

[Magnum]

Quote: Vref

Magnus,

Sure you can find cheaper ones everything depends on what you want.....

Having surveyed the mooney market for more then a year in the US and Europe for a M20J ...I doubt that the 63K euro M20J mid time engine came with all the wisstles and bells and shiny interior and corrosion treatments (maybe I am wrong)

Knowing the cost of an IO360 engine overhaul....I seriously talked this option through with people of LOMA air in Belgium (close to wher I live).  They are the biggest engine overhauler in Europe for the moment (more then 100 Lyc&Conti engines in six moths time), you end up with 110 K euro to get the engine overhauled plus work....

IMHO and experience from my previous aircraft  the engine/prop condition is the most crucial thing all the rest is a compromise and can be controlled in cost an what your ambitions are...

So yes you can find a 70K euro bird ....but it will be a compromise...but again...maybe I am wrong..;-)

In Germany you can fly the engine/prop on condition, which may help also.....

rgds

Luc

[Vref]

Quote: Magnus

The really good deals are not very long available, usually only a couple of days. You have search the ads every day and act fast. My Mooney showed up on the internet, I called the seller and two days later I did the prebuy, signed the contract and made a deposit. I can PM you the details if you are interested.

[Magnum]

Some pictures would be great. What kind of paint scheme are you planning?

[PapaPapa]

Quote: KLRDMD

Technically, it is Aviation Monetary Unit, but the above has the same sentiment.

[PapaPapa]

Quote: Magnum

[Vref]

Quote: Magnum

Some pictures would be great. What kind of paint scheme are you planning?

[Magnum]

Quote: PapaPapa

ah ok , now i think i get it.

so if there's no EASA STC for the FAA STC, either :

1/ you remove it,

2/ or try and talk to the manufacturer to "make" an EASA STC

3/ or you try (and pay) to have it done by a shop.

 

If there's a EASA STC :

1/ it's held by the manufacturer and is then probably free

2/ or it's held by a shop in EASA-land and then you have to pay for it to this shop

 

correct ?

[PapaPapa]

and that's why i opened this subject as well 

But thanks very much for the clarification ! STCs is a hairy matter...

[Magnum]

Here is a cheap 201: '77, 1900 TT, Prop & Eng 0 TSOH, new paint '09. Needs new interior and avionics upgrade. 38.000 Euros.

[Magnum]

Sorry, I forgot the link:

http://www.planecheck.com?ent=da&id=14225

On the first picture you can see that the fuel tank seems to leak...

[OR75]

I can't really see the fuel leak. (on the gear door maybe  ???)

Anyway, price looks low considering even considering the thin market for an N registered aircraft in France.

very basic aircraft though without a basic A/P. Most 77 J model, I believe, were equipped with a Century IIB