OP ED-"Little Timmy Wants to Know Why Nobody Likes Airplanes Anymore?

[John Pleisse]

 

And yes, a C17 full for porn and birth control would probably be considerably more effective in the middle east than any military solution.

 

Yes. In Gaza and the West Bank.

[AndyFromCB]

Yes. In Gaza and the West Bank.

 

So does God care if a Muslim puts a little rubber sheath over his johnson? 

[BorealOne]

30,000 annual gun deaths in the USA. Why even bring this up fellow gun owner? What is your point? What is your solution? Is what it is.

 

"It is what it is" because it's impossible to have a rational conversation about guns in America.

 

The best 15 minutes on the topic, ever, from an Australian stand up comedian:

 

http://youtu.be/fP3HJVp3n9c

 

'nuff said.

[John Pleisse]

So does God care if a Muslim puts a little rubber sheath over his johnson? 

 

A a Christian....I really hope.

[John Pleisse]

30,000 annual gun deaths in the USA. Why even bring this up fellow gun owner? What is your point? What is your solution?

 

 

Arm more law abiding American citizens than gun carrying criminals. Contrary to liberal ideology, this actually works.

[AndyFromCB]

Arm more law abiding American citizens than gun carrying criminals. Contrary to liberal ideology, this actually works.

 

Yeah...Typical answer to everything. Worked really well with trickle down economics. Just keep on doubling down on everything. I swear, you guys are like 3 year children who want a cookie. Why don't you bring up a long discredited John Lott study, another guy who needs a dictionary: causation != correlation.

[BorealOne]

Arm more law abiding American citizens than gun carrying criminals. Contrary to liberal ideology, this actually works.

 

 

Bwwwwwwwwwahhahahahahahahaha!!!

 

(sorry - of all the ridiculous things ever said in this thread, that's the most over the top. Wiping tears of laughter from my eyes...)

[John Pleisse]

And? You don't get a pass laughing......anybody can do that. Argue on merit, not a Canadian fly-by.

[AndyFromCB]

And? You don't get a pass laughing......anybody can do that. Argue on merit, not a Canadian fly-by.

 

The merit is simple. If you don't sell semi auto rifles and any sort of handgun readily available in stores to anyone with a few bucks and a drivers license and you confiscate all existing weapons and make a penalty of possessing an illegal one 25 to life (about the same as a few pills in Florida, only seems fair), we would not have 30,000 Americans dead each year. We would have 30, like they do in Japan or UK or Australia. You cannot argue with that. Gangbangers on the South Side of Chicago and/or crazy mental cases are usually not skilled machinists. If there were no guns, there would be no gun crime. Hard to argue with that. I'd like to see some of more recent massacres replicated with my Kimber 84 bolt action rifle. And rifles and shotguns tend to stick out like sore thumbs when wondering at night, being up to no good. Just saying, John. And the video does make a good point. If guns were illegal, the illegal ones would cost $30K a pop. No exactly your typical Obama phone wielding, EBT card carrying kind of cash... 

 

If you need 30 rounds to protect your family, maybe you should have voted differently in the past few elections, because I hate you break it to you, but society has broken down and you too will soon be out of bullets and dead. Second Amendment does not stand between you and tyrannical government. Tyrannical government, should it turn that way, has F18s. Good luck with that. You're much better off not supporting fascist policies that will come back to bite you in the ass the ballot box.

 

And yes, I like guns, I have guns, lots of them. If required to turn them in and fairly compensated for them, I would. And so would you John because your wife would tell to shut the fuck up and do it and keep on making the mortgage payment. But it's a theoretical discussion, but it will not be happening any time soon.

[BorealOne]

(still wiping tears of laughter from my eyes)

 

You say arming average, everyday, law abiding people "actually works". Not sure what problem you think more people packing heat in their day-to-day lives is solving, or what evidence you have for that proposition, but I'm inferring you think that this will protect them from crime.

 

It doesn't. Far from it, it puts them and those they love in danger. Most people are idiots when it comes to guns. Heck, most people are idiots when it comes to driving cars, and they have to pass basic competency tests for that. But when it comes to guns, where nothing more than having a pulse deems you qualified in most states, you want more of them packing?

 

1. Watch the Jim Jeffries video I posted above. It's a) very very funny, and very very true. He makes his points way better than I would.

 

2. Check out TTAG's Irresponsible Gun Owner of the Day posts, or Joe Nocera's Gun report in the NYT:

 

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/category/irresponsible-gun-owner-of-the-day/

http://nocera.blogs.nytimes.com/category/gun-report/?_r=0

 

Unlike the NYT, the TTAG is a very pro-gun site. They do lots of good reviews of new guns and gear, but they also cover the politics and unlike the frikin NRA, they don't varnish the fact that plenty of law-abiding Americans do some serious harm to themselves or those they love on a daily basis with guns by being stupid. Yes, such examples are anecdotal, but statistically, the US is way off the charts compared to other OECD countries when it comes to firearms-related deaths. The majority of US firearms related deaths aren't a result of bad guys getting shot by good guys, or even good guys being shot by bad guys they don't know - they are overwhelmingly suicide, domestic violence, and accidental shootings. 

 

http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

 

3. I'm a serious hunter and gun enthusiast. I "shoot to kill" every chance I get. Recreationally, I shoot IPSC, 3-gun and precision long-range competitions. I have a couple of safes full of drool-worthy firearms. I consider myself safe, competent and well-trained, as do those who shoot with me. And that's just it - when I'm on a range or out in the field, I'm packing guns with people who I consider safe, and we watch each other to ensure that we are safe. But the thought of being surrounded by supposedly 'law abiding' people carrying guns when I don't know their level of skill or sanity scares the bejeezus out of me, and it should scare you too.

[flyboy0681]

30,000 annual gun deaths in the USA. Why even bring this up fellow gun owner? What is your point? What is your solution? Is what it is.

 

"It is what it is" because it's impossible to have a rational conversation about guns in America.

 

The best 15 minutes on the topic, ever, from an Australian stand up comedian:

 

'nuff said.

 

He does make some interesting points, and some of the people he referred to as "seething" are actually here on MS.

 

I've always felt the "I have a gun to protect my family" argument to be weak. Like the guy in the video said, you would need to have the gun on your person at all times, even when sitting in your favorite chair watching the Kardashian's, taking a shower or working under your car. 

[AndyFromCB]

Do you support banning SS109 ball ammo as armor piercing as being supported by administration? The point being? The result being? The positive being?....

 

 

Why do you hate police officers, Scott? Obviously any .223 round is a soft armor piercing round. A .223 pistol has to be the most ridiculous idea I have ever seen in my entire life. The police unions are pushing for this ban. You can only thank Bushmaster for this one. What's wrong with the finest handgun ever created, a 1911. I've shot the Bushmaster pistol. Seriously, really? What purpose does that gun serve other than gang banging. You think Bushmaster doesn't know who its target audience is and where they will end up. That's the problem with current gun laws. Total and complete inability to trace straw purchases. And yes, for that  particular gun, I see 75% of them being a straw purchase. Explain to me why anyone would want to own one? I get it if you say just because you can.

 

 

I fully understand why NRA is against any sort of traceability: liability. They don't fear the government confiscating arms. We know the idea is ridiculous. If they wanted to, they could do it today. In America, you'd simply go door to door and have a 80% hit ratio. 

 

It's all about liability. I happen to be a libertarian. Which means everything comes at price. Want to own a gun? Cool, great, more power to you. Your gun gets used in a crime? Just like you car, you either have insurance or you pony up yourself whatever the jury decides. You make cheap, junky $100 guns and 80% end up in possession of felons. I think we have a problem. We make you pay the costs associated with your tool, just like any other manufacturer has to. Pretty simple. Pretty fair.

 

If you think for a second that marketing departments at gun manufacturers don't make "gang-banger" lines of weapons, movie placements and advertisements, I have a bridge to sell you. What percentage of guns legally purchased in Gary ended up in Chicago in the hands of felons? Most of them.

 

Essentially guns are to the right like EBT cards are to the left. Everybody wants their "rights" without any responsibility. 

[flyboy0681]

Here is the police brutality video du jour.

 

It's the story of a man taking a walk in a quiet neighborhood in Alabama. A resident called police to report a strange man walking down his street and when police arrived they confronted him. He wouldn't answer their questions and they eventually took him down, face first, resulting in broken vertebrae that resulted in partial paralysis. Oh, one more thing, he was visiting his son who lives in the neighborhood. The man is from India and doesn't know any English. He wasn't resisting arrest, the cop was just frustrated that the man wasn't answering any of his questions.

 

http://abc13.com/news/video-cop-sued-charged-with-assault-after-man-thrown-to-ground/515946/

[John Pleisse]

I'll be as brief as I can, given the depth of this issue. Let's start by working off of a few basic axioms with which to navigate. Inarguable realities that exist and shape the gun debate in America.

 

1) There are more guns than people in America

2) Our constitution allows individuals to own guns, almost limitlessly.

3) We have a political process that supports gun ownership.

4) Guns (and this may come as a shock to you) are designed to kill and are unique as such

5) America is unique when compared to the developed world and we are not the model of the developed world

6) America has the world's most armed, prolific military and correspondingly one of the largest ex-patriot veteran populations in the world

7) Our neighbors to the south in places like Mexico, Venezuela, Columbia, Jamaica and especially, Brazil have 4 to 5 times the number of guns and death rate per capita, yet are arrogantly dismissed as "underdeveloped" or "criminal".

8) Not a single gun law in America has served it's intended purpose, in fact the opposite. The only gun law that has worked, ever so briefly, was the ban in Washington DC that was just found to be unconstitutional

9) Of the 310,000,000 guns in America, the last 50 million have been purchased in frenzied run ups to impending gun legislation

10) Criminals are responsible for more homicide and death due to fire arms than law abiding gun owners and law abiding citizens.

11) There hasn't been an amendment to the US Constitution in nearly 25 years and it (the 27th) was a populist effort.

12) The recent rash of mass shootings in America didn't produce populous support (other than Pierce Morgan, bless his heart...oops, sorry, not a citizen) for a single new federal gun law.

 

These are realities we face.....it is where we are. My friends in Sweden, Canada and England really burn me up when they arrogantly flaunt around statistics and comparisons to "developed",,,,"civilized" societies. Sure, the death statistics are inarguable, but like all numbers, are mathematical products of reality.

 

Want to argue gun control in America? Provide a responsible solution. Let's hear it? I am all ears. Otherwise, I love it.......just the way it is......and Supreme Court Law and the Constitution of the United States afford me this protection.

[AndyFromCB]

Quite a few gun laws have served their purpose. I don't see gang bangers running around with full autos. You know why? Because it costs $20K to buy one. Very effective law.

 

Once again, your stats are incorrect or adjusted to support you cause. Brazil only tops us 2x, not 5x.

 

Most gun deaths in US of A were suicides. Only one third of gun deaths were "criminals", and another third of these were "domestic violence". Remove gang banging and your chance to confronting a violent criminal with a gun with your gun is just another fearful fantasy. Not exactly an argument for gun control but not exactly an argument to pack heat everywhere you go either.

[flyboy0681]

 

Want to argue gun control in America? Provide a responsible solution. Let's hear it? I am all ears. Otherwise, I love it.......just the way it is......and Supreme Court Law and the Constitution of the United States afford me this protection.

 

Pretty good analysis of things, most of which I agree with. The cat is out of the bag when it comes to guns and nothing can be done to remedy the situation short of a house to house Gestapo like seizure. In order for it to come to that, things would have to be pretty dire in this country.

 

One gun control law that worked which immediately comes to mind was the ban of Saturday Night Special's in New York. I vividly remember hearing the term on the 6:00 news everyday growing up in New York City as a kid. But in retrospect it may have been an ill advised policy. The use of these low caliber guns may have resulted in simply injuring the victim where the use of larger caliber guns result in death. One could argue that if SNS's were still available, people wouldn't buy the more expensive, higher powered guns.

[AndyFromCB]

Pretty good analysis of things, most of which I agree with. The cat is out of the bag when it comes to guns and nothing can be done to remedy the situation short of a house to house Gestapo like seizure. In order for it to come to that, things would have to be pretty dire in this country.

 

One gun control law that worked which immediately comes to mind was the ban of Saturday Night Special's in New York. I vividly remember hearing the term on the 6:00 news everyday growing up in New York City as a kid. But in retrospect it may have been an ill advised policy. The use of these low caliber guns may have resulted in simply injuring the victim where the use of larger caliber guns result in death. One could argue that if SNS's were still available, people wouldn't buy the more expensive, higher powered guns.

 

You can solve 8/10th of non domestic violence gun crime over night. Legalize all drugs, let Philip Morris deal them. It will also solve quite a lot of other side problems. Gun violence in US of A is a symptom not a cause.

[BorealOne]

...Let's start by working off of a few basic axioms with which to navigate. Inarguable realities that exist and shape the gun debate in America.

 

1) There are more guns than people in America

2) Our constitution allows individuals to own guns, almost limitlessly.

3) We have a political process that has allowed most of this to occur

4) Guns (and this may come as a shock to you) are designed to kill and are unique as such

5) America is unique when compared to the developed world and we are not the model of the developed world

6) America has the world's most armed, prolific military and correspondingly one of the largest ex-patriot veteran populations in the world

7) Our neighbors to the south in places like Mexico, Venezuela, Columbia, Jamaica and especially, Brazil have 4 to 5 times the number of guns and death rate per capita, yet are arrogantly dismissed as "underdeveloped"

8) Not a single gun law in America has served it's intended purpose, in fact the opposite. The only gun law that has worked, ever so briefly, was the ban in Washington DC that was just found to be unconstitutional

9) Of the 310,000,000 guns in America, the last 50 million have been purchased in frenzied run ups to impending gun legislation

10) Criminals are responsible for more homicide and death due to fire arms than law abiding guns owners.

11) There hasn't been an amendment to the US Constitution in nearly 25 years and it was a populist effort.

 

 

Ok, axioms away. Let's start with the facts and arguments as you've stated them:

 

1.  Possibly, depending on what you are counting. If all arms (military and civilian), true. Otherwise, there are 90 guns/100 people in USA. Slightly more than Serbia, and way in front of Yemen and Switzerland.  

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

 

2. Yes, you have a constitutional right to own guns. But it's a constitution, not a law of nature. And as the Aussie comic notes, it's an amendment.

 

3. This thread is irrefutable evidence of the deficiencies in the US political process. It comes down to the simple fact that your politicians and courts are too chicken do do anything about the fact that the current interpretations of the 2nd amendment are big on rights, but not so much on responsibilities.

 

4. I don't need to be educated on guns. Like I said above, I'm a serious hunter and gun enthusiast. I also put myself through law school as a paramedic, and worked as a medical volunteer in hospitals, clinics and orphanages in West Africa in the middle of some nasty civil wars/genocides in the 90's. I know what they are for, how they are used, and what kind of damage they can do.

 

5. More American exceptionalism. Keep on believing it, but I'm not buying.

 

6. Not sure what the point is. You have a volunteer army. You have veterans. So? Some Western countries have compulsory service with standing militias. Should we be talking about the Swiss or the Israelis here? What point am I missing?

 

7. Not following the logic here - I'm guessing that most people would say that having lots of civilian guns but a low number of firearms-related deaths would be a mark of civilization and development, not the other way around. Norway and Finland - lots of guns, few gun-related deaths (almost all suicides, negligible homicides)  Also, you appear to be contradicting your evidence in point 1 (USA #1 in guns) to say that Mexico, Venezuela, Columbia, Jamaica and especially, Brazil "have 4 to 5 times the number of guns as Americans and gun related deaths". Statistically, Mexico is pretty close to the US in terms of firearms deaths/100 000 (11.7 to 10.3) while Brazil has twice the gun related deaths. You all have a long way to go to beat Honduras or Venezuela though. And yeah, call me arrogant, but I call those kinds of statistics evidence of some serious "underdevelopment".

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

 

8. Are we to assume that the problem is legislation ("no law would ever work"), or just the ineffective, politically compromised kind? ("bad laws don't work). I think it's the latter. Most Western countries have pretty effective firearms legislation. You guys don't. 

 

9. "Frenzy" and "firearms" are two words that should never be in the same sentence.

 

10. Bullshit, and you know it. Statistics don't support that statement.

 

11. Are you saying "we can't change" or "we won't change"?

 

Ok. Now on to responsible solutions. Keep your 310M guns. But keep them locked up. No one should be packing a gun in the places where most of us live and work unless they are trained and on duty. Impose serious criminal sanctions for firearms unsafely stored, for unlawful carry (i.e. anywhere but on duty, to/from a range, or into the field during an open hunting season) or unlawful sale. Buy back the guns that people don't want or need. Impose some basic safety and competency qualifications for range membership and hunting licenses to ensure that people who do want to use guns have the skills to do it safely.

 

Radical stuff, I know. 

[flyboy0681]

You can solve 8/10th of non domestic violence gun crime over night. Legalize all drugs, let Philip Morris deal them. It will also solve quite a lot of other side problems. Gun violence in US of A is a symptom not a cause.

 

 

I tend to agree. About 13 years ago Portugal decriminalized drugs and from what I have read, the results have been favorable. One of the side effects was actually a reduction in drug use and HIV cases. Many of the predictions, such as exponential growth of drug use, never materialized. Just goes to show how much the "experts" know.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/03/17/lowering-the-deadly-cost-of-drug-abuse/decriminalizing-possession-of-all-illicit-drugs

[flyboy0681]

 

 

2. Yes, you have a constitutional right to own guns. But it's a constitution, not a law of nature. And as the Aussie comic notes, it's an amendment.

 

 

 

I have often wondered what would be if the amendment specifically mentioned the work musket, as in "the right to bear muskets".

 

Since all supreme court decisions took those 27 words so literally, what would have been if that one word also appeared in the amendment?

[AndyFromCB]

I tend to agree. About 13 years ago Portugal decriminalized drugs and from what I have read, the results have been favorable. One of the side effects was actually a reduction in drug use and HIV cases. Many of the predictions, such as exponential growth of drug use, never materialized. Just goes to show how much the "experts" know.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/03/17/lowering-the-deadly-cost-of-drug-abuse/decriminalizing-possession-of-all-illicit-drugs

 

No, I don't say decriminalize. That's another half asses attempt that leaves cartels in charge. I mean legalize, every liquor store has a section with your weed, your blow, your heroin, your meth, etc, etc, etc. Turn in into a legal business. Use some of taxes collected for treatment for the 5% of population already addicted. Contrary to what most believe, cocaine, heroin, meth are no more addictive than alcohol and most people are part-time, recreational users, just as with alcohol. Let lawyers handle disputes instead of gang bangers. Instantly stop the grip cartels have on South America and American Ghettos.

[AndyFromCB]

 

10. Bullshit, and you know it. Statistics don't support that statement.

 

 

Yes they do, eliminate suicide, and all other 10,000 gun related annual homicides are by the very virtue of being a crime, committed by criminals. What are you trying to say here? Accidental deaths are about 1000 a year. Most homicides are not committed by guns carried by permit holders or otherwise being carried legally.

[flyboy0681]

No, I don't say decriminalize. That's another half asses attempt that leaves cartels in charge. I mean legalize, every liquor store has a section with your weed, your blow, your heroin, your meth, etc, etc, etc. Turn in into a legal business. Use some of taxes collected for treatment for the 5% of population already addicted. Contrary to what most believe, cocaine, heroin, meth are no more addictive than alcohol and most people are part-time, recreational users, just as with alcohol. Let lawyers handle disputes instead of gang bangers. Instantly stop the grip cartels have on South America and American Ghettos.

 

That may work as well. Lord knows the trillion dollars we have spent since Nixon declared a war on drugs hasn't worked one iota.

[AndyFromCB]

 

Ok. Now on to responsible solutions. Keep your 310M guns. But keep them locked up. No one should be packing a gun in the places where most of us live and work unless they are trained and on duty. Impose serious criminal sanctions for firearms unsafely stored, for unlawful carry (i.e. anywhere but on duty, to/from a range, or into the field during an open hunting season) or unlawful sale. Buy back the guns that people don't want or need. Impose some basic safety and competency qualifications for range membership and hunting licenses to ensure that people who do want to use guns have the skills to do it safely.

 

Radical stuff, I know. 

 

What's your definition of a range? In most American West, 80% of the land qualifies are a legal range. Nothing I love my than popping a few hundred rounds at pop cans in national forests in WY and CO.

 

I think you are truly overestimating the number of accidental gun deaths that somehow would be solved by training and storage.

 

The only gun problem in US of A that I cannot think of a solution for is domestic violence. All others would solve themselves via other policy changes not directly related to guns. They are just a symptom.

[BorealOne]

Yes they do, eliminate suicide, and all other 10,000 gun related annual homicides are by the very virtue of being a crime, committed by criminals. What are you trying to say here? Accidental deaths are about 1000 a year. Most homicides are not committed by guns carried by permit holders or otherwise being carried legally.

 

The quote was:

 

Criminals are responsible for more homicide and death due to fire arms than law abiding guns owners.

 

Most gun deaths are self inflicted - 20k of the 30k, or 2 out of 3 gun deaths in America. On its face, this statistic disproves the statement that "criminals are responsible for more homicide and death". If we exclude suicides and accidental deaths, you are then talking about 10k deaths per year due to firearms fired intentionally, which, whether fired by a criminal or a "law abiding" gun owner is still, even in Florida, will result in the shooter being charged with a crime, even if there are defenses for it.