galt1074

Jgreen, First, I didn't laugh when I read the original post the first time. Second, I laughed my butt off after you announced it was tongue-in-cheek. Not trying to hijack your thread here, but it appears to me there are several good twins out there for far less than a Mirage which in my little world is pretty close to lifestyles of the rich and famous caliber. I've seen nice Piper Aerostars, Barons, various Cessnas for pretty low money...of course most of the time you get what you pay for obviously. I may have missed it somewhere in the thread, but what capability are you trying to add? You've bought thirty-some-odd airplanes and I've never bought one...I don't even pretend to understand the ins and outs but I'd like to learn before I spend all my money on a junker. Greg Greg

Quote: mooney2201 if you own a airplane,you can afford to fix it right,with a lycoming factory new engine.you would pay anything if things went seriously wrong,and someone was killed.you got very very luckey,for ten grand difference in engine price,go factory,,by the way it sounds like someone overtorqued cyllinder bolts,i have seen this many times,,,very very luckey you didnt destroy the plane,with off airport landing.

Christian, 1) The answer to this one is largely dependent on what you are willing to accept risk-wise. The probability of losing an engine is pretty low, the probability of losing two engines is extremely remote (unless of course it is your fault through ice, or fuel starvation). However, if you lose an engine in a Mooney over the North Atlantic you are pretty much dead no matter how well you ditch the airplane because you'll freeze in a matter of minutes. 2) Start here http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm and then you could try http://www.what2fly.com. I'm sort of new to this civilian flying thing but as I've learned researching Mooney's you can get most of them with turbos to get you a little higher, of course you'll need oxygen to get very high. 3) I've been shopping for some time now and Js are about your best bet for a good plane under $100K US 4) If it weren't for the whole North Atlantic flying bit I'd say you are looking for what most of the Mooney pilots I've met are looking for...good cross country platform. However, I know people who make that flight single-pilot in single engine aircraft and it is tough...really tough...and the guys that I know that say that are several-thousand hour military guys with all the right equipment. I've flown multi-engine for the last 3k hours or so and the biggest piece of misinformation out there is the relative safety of multiple engines. First, two engines are more likely to get you to safety than one. However, the performance and safety advantages of two engines is not really double that of one engine, more like one-third again. Two engines burn more gas but don't make you go twice as fast, on one engine you can still fly but pilot technique and workload go through the roof and you only fly about 33% as well as an equivalent-weight single engine aircraft would on the same horsepower due to the amount of drag induced by the asymmetric thrust. I guess what I'm saying here is that I would not make the North Atlantic crossing as a low-time private pilot maybe even in a multi-engine aircraft. I've made that trip a couple times in C-130s and it is not a forgiving route with over 16K horsepower and four engines, I can't imagine what it is like behind 200 horsepower and one spinning prop. In all reality and if you looked at it statistically and objectively, you'd probably be fine...but the price is pretty steep if something goes wrong. No "ifs" or "buts"...you ditch in the North Atlantic, you die in a matter of minutes according to all the military survival training I've been given. Greg

Hey folks, I know there are a few of you on here that are in the Albuquerque area and I was wondering if any of you would be interested in letting me share expenses for a quick flight. I've never had the opportunity to ride in a Mooney and I'd like to see how they fly and get a feel for the amount of room inside before I get much further in the shopping process. Reply or shoot me a PM if you wouldn't mind and let me know the particulars. I'm essentially completely unavailable during the week for my job but usually pretty free on weekends. Thanks Greg

Mazer, would you reccommend the LS800 over the Acer in the SkyPad 3 package?

Quote: danb35 Actually, depending on what you're using for a PDF reader, you don't need iTunes to do that transfer. GoodReader, at least, has a number of other options for getting content into the app, one of which is over WiFi. See http://www.goodiware.com/gr-man-tr-wifi.html for details. You can also download PDFs over the Internet and open/save them in GoodReader. That said, I'm not aware of any CAC-aware apps for iOS that are currently available--though it looks like there's some development going on. See http://www.thursby.com/PKard_Reader.html for some information that might be useful. I'm not trying to talk you into an iPad, but I'd like to try to set the record straight on any misconceptions you may have.

Quote: danb35 I'm afraid I don't have any information about Windows-based EFBs (though AnywhereMap is another option, FWIW), but I'd like to briefly address the "chained to iTunes" remark. You aren't. In fact, you don't need to use iTunes, or for that matter a computer, at all to use an iPad. As long as you have WiFi available for it, you can install apps, download data, and back up the device to the cloud without ever connecting it to a regular computer.

Folks, Does anyone here have the Seattle Avionics SkyPad 1,2, or 3? What about the Chartbook? I know a lot of people have and love iPad and Foreflight but has anyone had Foreflight and another system and could tell me the advantages and disadvantages? I think I'd rather have the SkyPad because I'm used to Windows, everything at my military flying job is Windows, and I don't like the idea of being chained to iTunes. I've searched through the Forums a little for "EFB" and gotten some decent stuff but very little on the Windows-based systems. Thanks for the inputs! Greg

Hobbitt...better said than I.

Quote: ChristianGodin I am a new IFR rated pilot flying a 201. Equipment is a 430, VOR, ILS, 496, XM on my ipad and the 496, autopilot couple to 430. My experience is approx. 10 hours filing IFR in VFR or MVFR. Living in North East. Beside avoiding ice and tunderstorm can I fly in any type of clouds? Can i trust my XM? Should I file if I am not sure to be on top?

I use Navigator. Just today they added some functionality like weather overlays and some shortcut buttons to commonly used areas. Not up to Foreflight yet I don't think, but it seems to get better every couple months.

As a guy with about 2600 hours on "steam gauges" and the last 300 hours or so in an aircraft with a full glass panel and a HUD, I would say the following: Reading the steam gauges is intuitive simply based on the movement of the needles. As many of you have said seeing trend data based on the movement of the hand on a clock-style instrument is a matter of just seeing the needle move as opposed to reading the actual numbers. In addition these gauges are simple to operate (besides dialing in your baro and adjusting the horizon line, no inputs at all in most GA aircraft), and they are fairly reliable when they are electrically operated. C-130s don't have vacuum systems, everything runs off of AC electrical power cleaned through a series of transformer-rectifiers and AC-DC-AC converters. However, with proper training and well-formatted data presentation the flat panel displays are more reliable (in my experience) and feed more information to the pilot who can manage to take it all in. Especially when that data has been processed to the extent that instead of flying pitch attitudes you are on a flight path indicated by a climb-dive-marker and energy cues that provide both instantaneous feedback and trend data on pitch and power. Once you have learned to fly on these instruments and embrace their capabilities and limitations, I can tell you it quickly becomes a challenge to scan a six-pack. Now the HUD part is a whole-other-level of safety but that is not something you will likely see on a GA aircraft any time soon. It suffices to say that if my student roles into a 60 degree bank and his altitude changes by more than 10 feet and his airspeed changes by more than a couple knots, he has some explaining to do because of the cues in the HUD. In short, I think they are a double edged sword. If you are properly trained and proficient with the use of the various systems involved, glass cockpits provide exponential improvements in the data the pilot is presented with. Without that training and proficiency the differences in the way the data is presented coupled with the workload requirements to ensure you are "flying formation with the box" (keeping the GPS and the glass cues updated) can quickly overload a single pilot in IMC. I personally think the reliability of solid-state electronics far outweighs that of vacuum gauges and since I am comfortable with glass now I would be seeking that in an airplane purchase. My two cents. Greg

Quote: scottfromiowa My first complex time was in an Arrow. It was a 120-130knot airplane and seemed "fast" compared to a 172 or Cherokee. The Mooney is a 130-150 knot airplane. I will defer to Arrow II users in comparison to the F&G Models...My son is just under 6 feet. He rides up front and "girls" wife and daughter fly in back seat. As stated any panel can be "made what you want".With Mooney out there the Arrow just wasn't in the game for me. The fact that you are having a hard time deciding says to me that speed is NOT the primary mission...because if it was as well as build quality and flying characteristics the F&G are superior in a Mooney vs. Piper IMO based on use. To sum it up I would NEVER buy an Arrow over an F or G Mooney....EVER.

Hello again all! As I continue my shopping and budgeting process I'd like some input from you folks. I rent a Piper Arrow II from the local FBO and I've taken it on a few cross-country trips. For those of you who have flown both aircraft, how do the interior dimensions compare between an Arrow II, an M20E and the later stretched models like the F and J? The Arrow II is about the right size for me, my wife, and two kids to go on a cross country...the last one was about 3.5 hours. Any smaller than that and I think it would be a bit uncomfortable. While I'm at it, I'll ask what every Mooney flyer probably really wants to talk about, performance. In reality, how much faster should I expect to travel in a Mooney over an Arrow? Honestly the Arrow is pretty nice because it has an Aspen PFD and MFD connected to a Garmin 400 and it is pretty easy to fly. If I could just learn to land it (I'm used to landing a C-130 sitting about 10 feet off the ground so the runway look pretty big in the flare when I land the Arrow). Thanks for all the help you've given me so far. Greg

Quote: jetdriven The problem is too many aural tones. It distracts you from flying the plane. If you have a continuous tone like a variometer in a glider, that is going to get annoying real fast.

On the contrary I'd say what is important is the angle, all you have is airspeed to give you an idea what the AOA is. If you are going to max perform your aircraft and fly with precision there is no substitute for a gauge that tells you how your wing is performing and that instrument is an AOA indicator. You can stall at any airspeed, but not at any AOA. I have a computer in my "work aircraft" that constantly updates my peformance data and has a dynamic stall carret in the HUD. I would give that up happily for a good AOA indicator so when I slow down to refuel the helicopters I know how the wing is handling it and it would make my maximum effort landing operations a piece of cake...right now I just have to fly pitch and power and feel the airplane. I dig that challenge but in a brand new airplane (like the one we are testing right now) there is no excuse not to have a good AOA indicator. At 3,000 hours I still can't feel EVERYTHING. If I could get one on a Mooney (if I'm ever lucky enough to own one) I would want one there especially. No flight engineer to run my performance data, no computer to keep me up to date on the correct speeds for my current weight and atmospherics...just some little charts in the back of the POH that don't look like much compared to the 1500 page performance manual I use now. Greg

OP...excellent post and something I've been curious about for a while now. It looks like I'm going to be one of the later guys. Military, single-income, two kids kind of keeps me on the sidelines for now. Even Major's pay with the incentives I get for being a flier don't make me comfortable enough to afford a plane even though my wife is very supportive of my wish to spend ridiculous amounts of money on this. Money is all that is holding me up right now. If I had the extra cash laying around to operate the aircraft I'd buy tomorrow becuase I have the money for the plane itself. I would love to see these posts keep rolling in because it is inspiring to see that someday I should be able to do this. For you guys that are in the military, I would love a PM on how you swing it...I know that's a really personal question but I just can't make the numbers work. As some of you have stated, I really think money is what is keeping a lot of people out of GA. I read a lot of articles that talk about how many kids start and never finish their PPL and I can't help but think they are just running out of disposable income. It's not so much the state of the economy I think as the insane price of fuel (by Euro standards cheap but still...) and how much it costs to maintain these old girls...and a new airplane is completely out of reach from all but the highest earning types. I'm not envious, 99% of the 1% earned that money. For my part of the thread: PPL in 2000 at 23 Graduated military pilot training 2002 at 24 MEL/COMM/Instrument 2011 at 33 MEI/CFI-I 2012 at 34 ATP MEL next ATP SEL and CFI soon Greg 3112140

Quote: smccray My recommendation- run the numbers before you buy so you have some idea what you're going to encounter. Then double the number. If that doesn't scare you away, buy a plane and stop running numbers- it's too depressing. I know what I spend, but I choose to forget.

Yeah, Kyle was the guy that showed that site to me. I have spoken to Mr. Lyons about flying with him as safety pilot in the Mooney he keeps at KAEG. Thanks for the tip on the Front Range place. I'm still pretty early in the shopping process as well so I'm just gathering data right now. Welcome to the forum. You'll find a lot of passion and a lot of knowledge around here. Greg

Wow, I had no idea this was going to be such a hot topic. It reminds me of our military debriefs after a formation sortie. There's just enough wiggle-room in the regulation for very experienced people to disagree with the final answer. By all means keep it up folks because I'm learning with each post. Greg

Everyone, thank you for your replies. The varied response tells me that there are a lot of ways to go about owning and maintaining a magic carpet. I'm still in the pencil and paper budgeting stage and talking it over with the better-half (who is far too supportive by the way) making my peace with spending this kind of money on what amounts to a childlike obsession of mine. Flying airplanes is all I have ever done and all I ever plan to do...it's just tough to swallow paying to play instead of being paid to do so. George, I have bookmarked your extensive write-up on the buying process so thank you for providing your knowledge again. I hate to ask questions that have been asked a million times already but I wanted to see what people are actually spending. Again, thanks to all of you and I hope to join you on the forum as a "real Mooniac" someday. In the meantime I look forward to being a part of the forum, somewhat on the outside but hopefully my military experience will help on some limited level. Greg

Nah, don't need the time at all. It wasn't a Mooney, it was a rental Arrow II but it doesn't matter either way. I've got more time than any rating requires anyway but I just wanted to get people's perspective. I think that objective has been met and I'm going to log it in some way. Thanks for everyone's input and I'm glad you all are so knowledgeable about the regulations. It speaks well of all of you that you are a) so pationate about what you do to argue about something so trivial and so well versed in the appropriate guidance. Greg

New wrinkle for everyone. The Albuquerque FSDO says I don't log anything.

That's an excellent question. CFR 91-109 talks abou simulated instrument flight but it doesn't specifically call out vision limiting devices. I'll look around and see what I can find. 61-57 says if you are going to practice instrument approaches for the purpose of currency you have to use a view limiting device...so I guess if you put the two together you need a safety pilot if you are going to use a view limiting device to practice instrument approaches for the purposes of currency. My question over there was how I as the safety pilot should actually log that time...there is obviously some debate so I'm taking what the local experts have said and I'm going to do some research as well. Greg

Quote: peter Greg, Guilty as charged, but you played a great straight man. My bird is over at AEG - and you are welcome to safety pilot with me any time if you like. I have just under 2k C130 hours as a navigator. Every time you boys fly over our house I tell my boys they are hearing "the sound of freedom." If it hasnt been said already, thanks for all that you do. Peter