drmarkflies

This whole China connection is blowing my mind. Have you seen Mooney's new path to bankruptcy? Meet the Mooney Billionaire Club. I wonder if they will let an M10 land here? http://www.mooneyworldwide.com/

The NTSB finally has a probable cause for this Bravo crash, three years later... apparently the pilot was scud running in the pattern with a cloud base at pattern altitude. "The pilot’s failure to maintain sufficient altitude to clear obstructions while maneuvering on the base leg of the traffic pattern for landing." If we are not instrument rated (and current) we have lost one of the most important ways out of a bad situation... an instrument approach.

Thanks guys. Gear up, 10-degrees flaps it is. The vid link rwsavory put up was great. I always pondered what the horizontal stabilizer would do... it appears not very much. M

At what we think was Vref (77 kts in the long body Mooney) on dry concrete, it took about 110 feet to stop with gear up. I helped get an Ovation back on it wheels and went back to measure the skid. If you stand on the brakes, which I did at CGS to avoid hitting a deer, it took about 350 feet in my M20M. A lot of burning rubber and a tire ripped off the rim, but didn't hurt the airplane (or the deer). So... wheels up is about 1/3 the distance of wheels down on dry concrete. Wheels up would be a bit further on asphalt.

What do you guys think is the best configuration for a water ditch? Wheels down, you will nose over, wheels up you will skip like a rock. How about gear partially down and a standard flare? The gear might work like a rudder and not add so much drag that you nose over?

Rod Machado reminds us that the most expensive airplane we will ever fly is the cost of our insurance deductible. I have zero deductible, which means if I keep control of my airplane all the way to the crash site and walk away, I've lost nothing.

I think some of use still think of our prop like a rocket. It isn't. It is a wing that can stall. At a higher wing angle of attack and low airspeed, the prop will have a higher angle of attack also. That means at some pitch attitude, the prop will stall completely and you will have no power regardless of engine HP. I'm sure you engineers out there can explain the physics better, but in practice a botched landing means to me PUSH to keep the nose absolutely as low a feasible until you get near Vx. If you bounce and get oscillation, you absolutely have to PUSH and hold or you will loose it. Once you get to Vx, you will quickly catch up with both a faster climb rate and more power from the prop. PUSH, POWER, RUDDER, then worry about cleaning up the drag when you have a positive rate of climb. Obviously, don't PUSH so hard that the nose wheel goes into the ground, but you have to keep the nose down to get maximum power out of the prop.

I agree there is enough power to climb in a high power, long body Mooney in any configuration if you keep the nose down, but you really have got to push right after a bounced landing, especially if the bounce starts an oscillation... and you've got to get the right rudder in fast and hard. If the nose isn't down at first, I mean down to 8-degrees or less, it will feel like the engine is not putting out much power at full throttle, and even though you get a little anemic climb at first, you are rewarded with a mushing sink and a left turn. If you've seen the M20L animation, this scenario will seem familiar. I've been there. Fortunately, I was taught to PUSH first and ask questions later. Somebody please tell me why "they" don't teach that before you take your first solo? It takes big muscle memory to push, because all you want to do is pull. I hope all you Mooney drivers rehearse an after takeoff engine failure routine before every flight. You do right? It will save you even when (or especially if) you try to stall a perfectly good airplane. I'd love to hear what mental check list you rehearse before every flight. I use this... PSADS ("push", "switch" (fuel, boost, alt air), "aim", "drag" (gear, flaps), "secure" (master, fuel, door). Keep well trained ya'll.

I really think the purchase of Mooney by Meijing is a good thing, especially if Mooney parts start flowing again. Without new parts, our fleet was destined to fade away leaving worthless corroding dinosaurs in our hangars. Accolades to Mooney for hanging on as long as they did. "Rean of reak" is a lot better than the dump heap.

RoBG... my response in neither timely nor do I have a solution yet. All I offer now is affirmation that I have the same oil pressure problem and will report back. I have always had the same reduced oil pressure indication at cruise since I put in a new zero time Lyco TIO-540. Just barely in the green (40 psig) at high MP (32). At start up pressure is 80. Lower MP (27) puts the needle back at 55-60 psig. Now with 50 hrs. on the zero time, oil burn in #2 and #6 has never resolved with break-in. I can tell by coking around the exhaust expansion joints on the manifold. Unrelated, but, I also had oil seal failure on two brand new turbos, both failures identified by oil in the exhaust pipe on pre-flight rather than in flight. My $50K Lycoming engine is a pain, but so far Lyco has paid for warranty issues. Now working with Lyco Authorized service center on oil burn problem an low pressure problem (related?) Will definitely look into the possibility of an incorrect valve seat as mentioned, but I think oil could be making its way around the rings. I will report back causes with oil burn and low pressure when they become clearer.

Quote: KSMooniac It came on a zero-time engine from Lycoming last year. The turbo is a new Hartzell with a -000 serial number... so not a rebuilt Kelly. Hartzell rebuilt this new one Feb 2011 after we sent it to them based on the mandatory SB. Hartzell has some serious quality control problems, and seems to me.... big liability problems.

Quote: KSMooniac Do you have any idea what calendar date the turbo was overhauled by Hartzell? I'm wondering if you had an old Kelly unit that might have been sitting on a shelf for a while...

It was a freak that we caught the problem and only because of a small gasket leak on the turbocharger housing, but the induction side of my new Hartzell turbo was full of oil after sitting for two weeks during its annual. It probably would have failed during the next flight and drained my oil. I have 30 hrs on a zero time TIO-540-AF1B Lycoming in my Bravo (M20M) with a Hartzell turbocharger. Before we installed the new engine, we had to send the turbocharger back to Hartzell because of a Service Bulletin (Lycoming 594, Continental SB10-8 and Cessna SEB11-1) to address possible metal contamination that can cause serious oil leaks and turbo failure. Hartzell did a rebuild and sent it back to us with the case improperly "clocked". We had to realign the case. The turbocharger now has only 30 hours and apparently the same metal contamination that triggered the SB and the rebuild was not resolved, and the oil seal failed. The engine used 1/4 liter of oil on its short flight to get its annual, which would be unusual, but the level was fine when we departed. I'm sure glad my A&P's shop is close. Advice... if you have a Hartzell turbocharger, especially a new one, be sure to inspect it for ANY evidence of oil at the bottom of the housing and pay close attention to even the slightest excess oil consumption.

Quote: aviatoreb aviatoreb- Here are some pics of the Bravo turbocharger V-clamp. Probably best not to put an old one back on after exhaust work and check it often.

Quote: aviatoreb Please do. How much is this problem only Bravo specific?

Has anybody looked at the FlightAware track for N486KC, the accident Bravo in the forced landing near Front Royal, VA? http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N486KC The track indicates an earlier flight on Feb 23 originated in S. America. Does that make sense to anyone? The accident flight track (FlightAware) looks about normal to me for landing at Hagerstown. The pilot left 9,000 for 5,000, leveled off then appeared to do a controlled descent. The speed track is hard for me to intepret. Any insight you more experienced pilots? This is a puzzling accident. I hope they are doing ok.

The V-clamps are on the lower left side of the engine behind the lower cowling above the turbocharger. They are impossible to quickly preflight. With the top cowling off, you can reach down and grab them. To really inspect, you have to pull the lower cowling. I pull the top cowling an yank on them ever ten hours or so. I drop the lower cowling every 50 hours. I also do owner assisted 100 hour or annual (which ever comes first) and we take a hard look at the V-clamps. I totally agree once they are removed they should be replaced with new clamps. These V-clamps are like kryptonite to the Bravo. I will try to get some pictures posted.

I'm a big fan of Trey's comment about the insurance company owning the airplane after an EFATO. I kind of wish I had never seen Dave Keller's video. Yes. Heartbreaking to have lost a Mooney family member. I think the best hope is that we never fail to brief a well-practiced EFATO before pushing the power.

The M20M crash that started this thread sent me off to do Upset Recovery Training at APS in Mesa, AZ. I just finished the course. Here are some thoughts. First thought: Wow! Just wow! I will never look at how I fly my Bravo the same way again. Conventional training my tell us what not to do, this training unambiguously shows you what happens when you do the things you are taught not to do... like skidding turns in the pattern. I had no idea how insidious and then violent and disorienting a skidding stall becomes. You also have not lived until you recover from a fully coupled inverted spin. I did the full 4-day course which included stall recovery under the hood. It cost about the same as my annual insurance premium. It was completely worth it. After your vertigo wanes and just so you don't forget what you did, they send you home with onboard video of you from the inside, and your airplane from the right wind and top of the empennage for every flight. I made some facial expressions never before seen by man. APS instructors are absolutely world-class. You may want to check out some of their training videos. www.apstraining.com/ If you have not yet seen it, this is what not to do in your Mooney should you lose the engine after rotation. http://www.aviationlawmonitor.com/2011/07/articles/general-aviation/the-impossible-turn-and-three-mooney-crashes-in-two-weeks/ Fly safe y'all.

Quote: jlunseth http://www.mooneyevents.com/flying1.html http://www.mooneyevents.com/spins.html http://www.mooneyevents.com/spins2.html

Quote: Cris I think the Bravo is about 1:13... based on experiments. Does anyone know the actual spec for the Bravo and whether it is the same as the Ovation?

Thanks for the analysis John. I used to fly my M20M patterns like I was in the 172 trainer and always had to pull hard on the reigns on final (i.e., pitch up to slow down). I'm now usually flying the 1 mile pattern you suggest. Doing so really reduces the workload, allows slow-down time, and having space to square out the patten makes it easy to see others in the pattern. I got scolded by ATC at KFTG for my 1-mile pattern... too close to KDIA bravo I guess, but mostly I think, a good practice.

My take-home from you guys is to fly a Bravo pattern faster and wider with a longer stabilized final... the same concept used by the MD-80s that land at my towerless GA airport. It sure sounds right to me. Gracias!

Thanks to everyone for insight on the Pomona accident. I'm a low time Mooney pilot and definitely nervous about pattern maneuvering because I struggle to get my speeds right when the ASI is working correctly. I'd appreciate comments on the following. One thing I know about my low wing lady is that she behaves very badly if I try to set her down too fast and fail to take out the flaps if I do. My general strategy has been to be at 95 kts abeam, 85 kts base-final and 75 kts over the numbers. Even if I pull the throttle full aft, I always have to pitch or slip out 10 kts or so on final (but never do it until wings are level). Am I just missing my power setting or is my strategy wrong?

An ASI problem would explain the event, and something to which I will pay careful attention in the future. Under that scenario the pilot could have let the ASI trump the stall horn. It is peculiar how one can mix up the relative importance of warnings when under stress. We have all done it.