FlyingAggie

Ryan, Are you doing a complete strip and reseal on the tanks? The bird I am buying has long range tanks too One thing I have often heard is you can increase the life of the sealant by keeping the tanks full, but the 636 lbs of fuel almost makes the plane a single seater. What has been your practice in fueling? How often have you flown with full tanks? During the pre-buy did you have them fill the tanks to capacity to see if there were any leaks in the top part of the tanks? I am trying to figure out how to handle this in the upcoming pre-buy. Alan Quote: flashf16 The only related item on the pre-buy was the fuel tanks. The previous owner did fix them (or so he and I thought) and he got a brand new paint job put on the airplane after having the leaks 'fixed'--not wanting to have fuel leaking period, but especially on new paint. The ballast was put there by the previous owner because he always flew the airplane by himself and wanted to have more downward trim for a few more knots. I mostly fly with my family, so I definitely have the weight in the back. Even when they're not there, I'll carry the cover and a couple quarts of oil.

Ryan, To the contrary, tell me more! Actually I find it very interesting as I eagerly anticipate owning my first plane. Did any of the items turn up on your prebuy? Were you able to remove the ballast because the CG had shifted back over time? Alan Quote: flashf16 A lot more than you wanted to read... Ryan

Ryan, The seller of the 262 sent me the latest W&B and the UL is 892 lbsthat I am trying to buy has a UL. How long have you owned yours and what is the shop doing to it? My pre-buy is scheduled for the first week of March. Alan Quote: flashf16 Alan--815 for the useful load. 919 when it was new. I still don't have the airplane back, but I did manage to get the POH.... Ryan

Probably this subject should have it own thread.... The plane I am hoping to buy has pressurized Slick mags, so I need to learn more about the subject. Normally as the air density decreases conductors operating at the same high voltage have a greater tendency for corona discharge. This article has a pretty good explaination of the need for pressurized mags and some of the increased maintenance problems associated with them. Magnetos Under Pressure My question to the other 231 drivers is, "Are your mags Slick or Bendix and are they pressurized? What problems have you had? How often have you had them rebuilt? Alan Quote: Kwixdraw Not to divert the thread but somewhere in all of this isn't there an issue of the pressurized mags working properly at high altitudes? Seems like I read something in a book by the guy that owns SkyRanch ( is it John Schwaner or something like that?) that there were some problems with proper ignition due to the thinner atmosphere causing erratic spark timing. Just trying to understand the whole turbo ops picture since I may want one someday.

And miss out on experiencing the beauty and luxury of Ada, OK? I'll have to see if they still have online courses. Alan Quote: KLRDMD

One of the first upgrades I am planning for my new bird is sending the operator to the Advance Pilot Seminars, which Scott/KSMoonaic has highly encouraged. Alan Quote: JimR Thanks, Ken. Your experience and intuition are good enough for me. I've been learning all that I can for a couple of years now about LOP operations and especially the APS theories and teachings. Jim

Ken, I didn't want to quote the entire book , but Eckalbar devotes an entire Chapter on Mixture Control and is a advocate of LOP operations. Alan Quote: KLRDMD It there is something else that reduces engine temperatures, and it seems the author quoted above is not discussing it, or has no knowledge of it. That is lean of peak (LOP) operations.

Buster, In looking for 231, I asked the same question to several knowledgable brokers and received diameterically opposed answers. The new management at Willmar claimed the AUTO WASTE GATE was far more important than the INTERCOOLER and David at All American said the INTERCOOLER was more important than the INTERCOOLER. I have seen comments by owners like Ken who have the even the original -GB and later -LB engine claim you don't need either and they are just expensive comlications. In preparation for owning, assuming the prebuy goes well, a 262 in a couple of weeks, I have been reading John Eckalbar's book on Flying High Performance Aircraft. The chapter on turbo charge operation convinced me of the value of the intercooler, when you go through the thermodynamics. The TSIO360-MB engine in the 262 has both automatic wastegate and intercooler, but only the intercooler reduces the amount of heat going to the engine at altitude. (If you are below critical attitude the waste gate will "waste" heat to the atmosphere, keeping the engine somewhat cooler when you are down low.) Because air gains heat the more you compress it and the higher you go (especially with an autowaste gate maintaing max pressure up higher) the compression ratio goes up making the intake air hotter the higher you go. John Eckbalbar summarizes the value of the intercooler like this: "The bottom line is running the turbo can cause heat problems. First, the compression pushes the induction air temperature up to the point where the cylinders may as well be inhaling from an oven. Second,you push more air into the cylinders, so you burn more fuel and get more power. But burning more fuel releases more BTU's, which also means more heat in the engine. All this means cylinder heads, valves, pistons, exhaust stacks and everything else run hotter in turbo charged engine, especially those using high boost. This weakens the metal and increases wear. It also hurts fuel economy, because you may end up fighting the heat by flying with extra rich mixtures or with cowl flaps open. But even more important, the higher induction air temperature move the engine close to to its detonation limits. The reason for this is obvious---detonation occurs when end gas is pushed to the auto-ignition during the combustion stroke, and the higher the air temperature, the higher the end gas temperature. In view of this, it would seem anything that reduces induction air temperature will be a boon to the turbo pilot." So I guess the next question is how well do the after market intercoolers work on 231"s? Do they produce the same cooling as the one's that TCM installed at the factorythat went into the 252? I had both intercooler and autowaste gate on my "must have" lists when I was looking for a 231. With the -MB engine, I will have both. Alan

Quote: edgargravel And for Alan: Good Luck!! I hope your diligence pays off for you sooner, rather than later.

Quote: Buster1 Thanks for the advice guys, thanks for the PM Carl. THIS IS TOUGH. I've set my sights for my Spring Plan (my Spring Offensive if-you-will), and financially I'll be better then too. The house should be sold, and we should also be into a new place and settled in. I'll have more cash on-the-ready by then too. With all this planning, it sucks to seem to find the right bird now - early! Great advice, I am getting emotionally involved, and I haven't even seen the plane first-hand. But the promise that she is meticulously cared for is luring. The broker, who seemed really honest, even said he would bet that a PPI wouldn't find much to fix...it's a pampered plane....arggg. The wife agrees with you guys...we need to wait. I think our current house will sell in time, and we'll not stretch our budget on a new place in Vegas. But the possibility of carrying two mortgages AND a plane deal would break the budget. I am hoping for a fast sell here. We go to Vegas in 2 weeks to house hunt, maybe we can move quickly on something down there and wrap this house stuff up. Additionally, I did email the broker and 'offer' to work a deal with the seller based on timing. I basically asked how he would feel pulling the plane off the market, but didn't offer a deposit. It doesn't hurt to deal and talk, we'll see what he says. I'll let you know. Thanks for reigning me back guys, and slapping me with some common sense. I'm just getting too close to my Spring Offensive, and getting jumpy. Nate

I echo the other's offering congratulations. You have made a great acquisition. Where did you do your prebuy and did you do an annual at the same time. Alan

Quote: danb35

Quote: N9937c you might check the 2 very small fuses that are on the bottom of the curcuit breaker panel they are under a little thimble shaped cap. made by LITTLEFUSE and you will fell like you have been screwed when you have to replace them. there are 2 of them one + and one-.

Ryan, That is one of the highest UL that I have seem for a 262. I received some good news this week about the 262 I am buying. The owner had told me he thought the UL was 835 lbs, but he sent me the last W&B and it turns out to be 892 lbs. So if both my wife and I loose a total of 100 lbs, she can come along on trips with me with full fuel (106 gal) in the long range tanks! Alan

I inquired about a local partnership in a 1964 M20C with a TTAE of only 900 hrs. The engine has never been overhauled and is running strong with compression in the mid 70's. Sounds like those engine are well built. This seems to be turning in to an engine question thread, so I'll post mine. The 262 I am trying to buy has only operated 1.5 hrs in the last 8 months. Before that is was flown about 60 hrs/year. Can an engine signicantly deteriorate in that short of time, so much that it will need major work? How concerned should I be? Would a good prebuy detect problems if they borescope the engine? Finally, are there any special steps you should take the first time you start your engine after it has set for 8 months? Alan

Wow, that must be a light a/c. Most of 262's I've inquired about are between 800 and 900#'s. Alan

After looking at a lot of panels, I came to the conclusion that having a single 530 or 430 and a panel docked GPS offered the best feature set and most flexibility for the buck. Although dual GPS/NAV/COM setup appears to provide better redundancy for those inclined for hard IFR. I really like the features of the Garmin 480 and the better display, but IIRC it is unable to display wx, so it is often teamed up with the MX20. I was disappointed with the quality of the display on the MX20 or at least the one had opportunity to use. Upgrading the panel docked GPS to the latest and greatest new portable GPS appears to be more cost effctive than upgrading intergrated GPS/NAV/COM units. Does anyone know if it is possible to feed weather to two portable GPS at the same time? Alan

Eric, The a/c is equipped with a JPI700. The Aerospace Logic gauge is a nice looking instrument. The a/c has separate OAT gauge and clock on the left side of the panel, so I could replace those with this dual OAT/Clock from the same vendor (http://www.200series.com/site/dbload.asp?PageId=PROD&Level=5&Inst=CT1-F) freeing up a spot to put the dual volt/amp meter. So that would be a 1 amu solution. Alan Quote: hansel I agree with jlunseth that you should have a working ammeter regardless of airworthiness concerns. If you're not ready to shell out the cost of a full blown engine monitor (which is a great investment btw), you could opt for a stand alone, STC'd, primary voltmeter/ammeter combo like this from Aerospace logic... http://www.200series.com/site/dbload.asp?PageId=PROD&Level=5&Inst=VA-100-K60 Fits in one of your 2.25" diameter displays to the left of your primary instruments (if you have the space). Also, installation of an ammeter should be a piece of cake for your mechanic since there's no complex probes/wiring that needs to be completed. Mine was less than $500 out the door (with instrument and labor).

jlunseth, The aircraft is actually a 231 that has undergone the Trophy 262 conversion, so it has two alternators. It also equipped with a JPI 700. The seller says he feels comfortable with flying with the volatge readings from the JPI as well as the panel docked GPSmap. The aircraft passed it's last annual apparently without a problem, but I would like a working ammeter. A voltmeter will only tell you that you have a problem when the lights begin to dim, but the ammeter will give you more insight into the health of the electric system. I take it the only option for fixing the ammeter is to have the entire gauge cluster overhauled because there is no OEM source for the unit? Also it must be is pretty expensive. I noticed that Craig McGregor (mooniac58) removed the cluster entirely and installed an EDM930 and another 262 owner has offered to sell me his gauge cluster because he did the same thing when installed a Xerion Auracle. Gee, I haven't even bought the plane yet and I am already finding things to upgrade!!!! Has anyone had their gauge cluster overhauled, if so how much did it cost and who does it? Alan Quote: jlunseth I am not going to chime in on the airworthiness issue, but rather on the need for a working ammeter in a 231. The 231 has a mediocre alternator system design. It is a direct drive, and the gearing of the drive unit is such that no matter what size alternator you have, the charging system does not work very well at low engine speeds (such as at idle or during taxi). The stock alternator is a 70 amp, and there is or was an 80 amp kit available, but the A&P's that know Mooneys will tell you the alternator size is irrelevant to this issue. The stock strobes and landing lights have a big draw. So night pattern operations where the engine is operating at idle for extended periods and these lights are on can lead to a discharged battery. The annunciator panel will tell you that the battery is discharging, but I would want a working ammeter if I were you, and I would also want a voltmeter. There are aftermarket units that are switchable between amps and volts. Unless you have something installed above the strip of engine gauges, they are accessible with the glare shield off. Maybe not convenient, but there is nothing there blocking access. A good alternate is an engine analyzer that reads amps and/or volts. Must be STC'd to be primary though, to satisfy airworthiness concerns. For example, an EDM 700 is not STC'd as primary, the 711 is STC'd.

Can anyone tell me if a non-operational ammeter would be considered an airworthiness issue and cause the a/c to "fail" its annual inspection? The ammeter in the engine gage cluster is not working in the a/c I am considering buying. This in in a 231 with gages at the top of the left side panel. How difficult is it to replace the gage cluster? Does the glare shield lift off, giving easy access to the gage cluster? Alan

Flash, What is the useful load of your 262? Alan

Craig, Congratulation on both the IR and the future arrival! Between the expected arrival, relocating to NM, keeping the new IR current and working on MS, your boat looks to be fully loaded. Thanks for all the work on MS. I really enjoyed meeting you and seeing your plane while I was in Kona and look forward to having you as a "neighbor" later this year. Alan

Buster1, Several months ago (June), I looked at and flew N5808X as well, and I agree with Parker that it is a very nice looking airplane and that the owner, Larry, is a very nice guy. IMHO, the plane is just over priced for this market and is probably why it hasn't sold in the last two years. Maintenance may be another issue. The list of items from Parker's prebuy inspection by Don Maxwell was pretty long and expensive to fix. Larry's partner, who is an AP, addressed many of the items on Maxwell's list of squawks, but felt other were not necessary. As I considered the plane, my concern is how they were addressed, for instance rather than replacing the rubber landing gear donuts, he installed metal shims to compensate for the wear. Cheap fix now, but more expensive for the future owner. The 6055 TTAF and 1208 SMOH cited in the ad are low and need to be updated for the usage Larry has put on the plane in the last couple of years. Although this 231 has all the nice late model airframe features (like one piece belly, split-folddown-removable rear seats etc.) and is fitted with an intercooler, KAP 150 and a new Garmin 430, it is missing three items on my "want list:" Merlyn automatic wastegate, graphic engine analyzer and speedbrakes. It would have cost about $20K to add those last three items. So at $92K asking price, and considering all the above I decided to pass on it, but it maybe just the plane you. Alan

Quote: Parker_Woodruff Shoulda seen my $19,000+ estimate on an M20K prebuy. Best $850 I spent. Unfortunately I was only able to negotiate a fraction (%) of the repairs to be completed at the seller's expense before I took it to Maxwell, so I would have made a $90k plane into 6 figures. He's thorough without being a nit-picker if that makes any sense to the OP.