Samurai Husky

I was including the students that use the 172's and 152's. We have plenty of 172's and they are all booked. So the demographic isnt just cirrus students. Its not just this club, he called CFI's at other clubs and it seems that is the same story. Very few people are passing on their first or 2nd try in general, regardless of plane. I dont know what to say; Most arnt making it out of oral either, which shocked me. It also looks like the club is starting to push diamonds for their trainers instead of cirrus. There are tons of new ones coming on the line including a diamond twin star.

I really hope that the rest of my flying career goes a bit smoother that what i have experienced so far. I would say this has probably been the most difficult thing in my life and basically is sucking all the fun out of it. Maybe the next time we go up i will ask if there is something fun we can do, like a IFR approach or something. Just something new besides the same maneuvers over an over again. 5, The horse is dead. Long live the horse...... seriously; no time or money to go back and relearn a new plane. 4. CFI cleared it; it was cleared for VFR flight both day and night. Maintenance cleared it, the DPE should eat the FAA dog food and not interject his personal opinions. Especially since it flew in the exact same condition the week before with him in it. Changing his mind at the last second because he had to leave at 230 and its now 130 is BS. 3. I dont consider the cirrus to be 'complex'. I dont know why people keep saying that. Its a plane, it functions on the same principals of every plane out there. It doesnt have prop control, its fixed, it doesn't have a retract, the only thing that seems to be scaring people is the computer screen of which there are still steam gauges. You can turn the PFD off and it still has everything you need to fly. So whether you look up at the screen or down at the steam gauges is up to you. But it doesnt make it any more or less complex. 2. Maybe, he didnt seem to care what i said other than pulling the chute violated his principals of flying. Its not a swamp; its a marsh; Trust me, you do not want to land in that marsh regardless of what you are flying. You will flip and die. https://www.google.com/maps/@37.4664547,-122.1184934,1668m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en 1. Isnt a IR considered a more advanced rating. Most people have what 100+ sometimes 200+ hours before they get their IFR? So i would expect by then you are prepared for certain things because you have built time and familiarity with what you are flying. You know options that you might not have known at 60 hours. I am good with all of that but as PIC i made the decision that with a no flaps this was a bad idea lets go do it somewhere else and that idea what rejected. Pulling the power at midfeild was akin to no flaps, whether you have 1500' of runway at near stall or 2400' blazing in at 85knts with no wind, the runway is just too short for some one with less experience. We were already going to divert to another airport with a longer runway, we could have just as easily done it there. We also hadnt done short field or soft field yet, so its not like we didnt have 'other' things we could have done. It is what it is. I will answer the CFI question again. Yes my CFI has had experience with this guy in the past. Yes in the past it had all been positive. No he hasn't used him recently as most students at my club give up prior to PPL. I dont know how long its been, he is just as shocked as i am. Not many people get ppl in the bay area. Its hard regardless of what plane you are in. My CFI called a bunch of other CFI's he know; Apparently the average right now is 3 attempts to PPL. 1 guy passed on his first try recently; but he was from Singapore and had 5000hrs flying commercial over there. He came to the US to get his US PPL so he could fly a N number in Singapore. Hope this clears some things up. @carusoam I would have to look at it; The book doesnt say; But from my memory its like 300ft or more; when you make that turn you are dropping fast. By the time you are 180, You are about 150' or less from the ground. So you have about 20 sec and need to be near the numbers while also putting flaps in and slowing up.

He pulled it at TPA; but at mid field on a 2400ft runway; TPA is about 800ft MSL though the runway is at 7ft AGL, so...... We also had 0 wind that day, so no help on final with the wind. Per the book the SR20 needs a minimum of 1000' to stop and that requires massive braking. Is it possible, probably; But that seems like something that should be done in a practice scenario; not on a practical. During the pre take off briefing we are told to make a game plane prior should the engine quit and say it out loud; The default is 'engine quits on runway, BRAKE, engine quits below 500' land straight ahead, engine quits above 500' pull the chute.' He said he would never pull the chute under any circumstances and would choose to fly the plane. I asked what if you are at 600'. he said he would do an impossible turn or land straight, but would not use the chute even though its there and that i should go out and practice impossible turns until i get good enough that i can do them at 1000'; Problem is, based on the numbers i just gave you, that wont work... you would be dead before you got to the runway.

1. Thanks! I feel like i know what i am doing. 2. I am pretty sure the club owner said 'oh well' to me when i told him what happend. Needless to say, i am so done with that club. 3. I looked in the POH i didnt see anything that explained it. 4-6 . Ah this is where i get to be a teacher and not a student! MELs - So the plane doesnt have a MEL; It has a Kinds of Operation List. A MEL has to be blessed by your local FSDO and tells you what 'can' be broken and you can still fly the plane. There is a ton of paperwork involved from what i understand in order to get a MEL. The Kind's list on the other hand comes from the factory and tells you what 'cannot' be broken in order for you to fly under the stated operation IE VFR IFR etc. There was nothing broken on the plane that would have prevented VFR day flight. So we are good there. The plane does have MFP in both a steam gauge and a digital read out; It also gives % of power in digital read out. I find it easier to read % of power then MFP; When i first started to learn it was all %, now he started to use MFP and frankly confused me. If you go through the cirrus POH, everything is referenced in % of power; IE book speed at 65% at 3000ft = 139knts or something along those lines. So that is what i tend to use when talking about the plane and performance. Regardless, i hardly ever look at the % of performance any more and just do what needs to be done. If i'm low, more power, if im high, less. When im in the pattern i target speed not % of power. Yea, i know approx what % will get me the speed i want, but its not set in stone and changes frequently. The airplane has no vac system. Its 100% electronic outside of the pitot static system. In the event of complete power failure, IE 2 alternators and 2 batteries. You would lose everything except for your magnetic compass, airspeed and altimeter. Which i agree would be horrible, but not what i consider a emergency. My CFI and I practiced that exact scenario and i found it to be do able (granted we didnt land and did go around, but i feel i could have landed the plane); Both my CFI and I felt safe putting 2 hours on it the night before with the exact same problems. Something happens you just deal with it. Otherwise what is the point in learning all of these maneuvers? What is the point of learning what red light/green light, flashing light, white light means? (tried to do a little dr suess there); Im not advocating throwing caution into the wind, I wouldnt go on a long distance trip with everything broken. But in a area with 20 or so airports all with in 5nm of each other, its hard to understand where he was coming from. Doing a 180 in a Sr20 is not possible, it doesn't have the climb rate to get enough alt based on distance covered. Just to put that to bed, per the POC, the climb rate is about 600ft per 1 nm. The best glide is about -670ft per nm at 96kts. If i felt like it was a teaching session i would probably take it better. But it was more of a statement and protest then it was about teaching.

Thanks Jim, I feel like have have come a long way. I think there were a few ah ha! moments and then a few 'oh FUDGE' moments along the way. All of it has been useful and sometimes just takes a little time to digest, analyze and the implement before it comes together.

Not sure how to approach some of these comments. I do feel that saying that my CFI is milking me for data is a bit insulting. Had i felt that was at any point i would have left. I have also trained with 3 other CFI's as required by the club. One of them i couldn't get out of the plane fast enough as no one should be subjected to that my curse words during a 'normal' conversation (hes a jet pilot); he forgot to put the simulated instrument stuff in my book when we went out, sent him a email, no responce for weeks. Showed up at the airport when he was supposed to teach another student and asked him nicely to put it in my book. Got bitched at for about 10mins before he finally just put it in. I felt completely blown away that a human being would act that way, needless to say, never going to deal with him again. The other one was ok, the third one for some reason made me nervous, i dont know why. So its not like i havent had other instances of training with other examiners before. If anything i will at least stick up for the character of my CFI. Also, we are not in a G1000 Cirrus, its a Avidyne Ex500 with dual garmin G430's. I might have said G1000 early on in my threads, but that was before i really knew what i was talking about So there is no 'data' he will get that is at all relevant to todays modern cockpits as the EX500 has been phased out for the Perspective or the Ex5000 in the R9 (I think there is also a R10 now) system. So right now the game plan is to take the other plane up this week and figure out why i have problems flying it. The one i am in now is a G2 SR20; The other one is a G3 SR20; There were over 700 changes made in the G3, one of them being that it sits higher to avoid prop/tail strikes; That changes the POV that i have been used to and end up landing flat (a lot); Also they did something with the throttle/prop connection which makes it stick at around 60%; which is annoying because its in a place that i tend to sit at the most. Anyway, we will take that up and see how i do now. The last time i took it up was in my PPL club check ride; i did fine on all the maneuvers, just landings were bad. If i can figure that out then great; i will use that for the check ride as there are no sqwaks on it at all. Only problem is that its booked for the week, so the soonest i can get into it is thursday. On the DPE front; I dont know what i to do yet. I really dont want to use this DPE again as i feel that now there is bad blood; But its also the holiday weekend and so havent really had the ability to talk with my CFI in depth about it and what my options are. By the way.. he still has the lake.

Thats odd, my post got wiped out... So got off the phone with my CFI and the 'how are you doing?' call; which was nice. He feels just as upset as I am as he really does think i am ready to be a pilot. He said he really needs to sleep on it because tensions are running high right now. @bonal Thanks! i will look him up and see what i can find. @Skates97 That would be great. Hopefully its sooner than 6 months before we have our PPL's though! To everyone, thanks for the support! Im glad that my concerns are valid and i am not just being a whiny.... well you know. I really do feel like i am ready i just wish there was a better way to prove it.

it wasnt the fuel quantity; it was fuel flow; Even then, it wasnt completely inop; at idle it showed 0gph-5ghp and bounce all over between them, but once you throttled up to would stabilize and be in the green. The fuel quantity gauges both analog and digital were working fine. his big gripe was the batt2; which i found out was installed just for IFR flight. We flew with everything else last week in the same condition as this week. But i understand what everyone is saying; its the same reason i have wanted to be done with this club for the past 2 months. The plane is going off for the 100hr this week, it probably will not be back for several weeks with everything that is wrong with it.

Find me him!

That might be a bit too extreme; I think i an -10 PTO days now from all the time off i have taken for check rides and training etc. I think i would also be a bit unnerved doing a test in a completely different environment from my own. I have no problem visiting there, but probably not the practical. Thanks Though!

It doesn't seem so, otherwise i dont think that he would have had me go to him. The other DPE is a Japanese guy who he says is nice, but really hard to understand, which is why i wasn't told to go to him. There is a unknown guy out of RHV, and no one has any info on him. So i dont know what to expect. I think we are all in a bit of shock; The guy is known for being a hard ass on paperwork. For instance we talked about my middle name for about 45 minutes. On my student license its just the initial. on everything else its the full name. We went back and forth about 30 times on why it should madder if its all tied to my SSN. Once you get passed the paperwork it was supposed to be easier; guess things changed...

100% agree, my problem is that there is no rental that is 100%; Its about risk reward; Worst case scenario, i said we could use 'pilotage' to get to KTCY which is a non towered airport and call a friend of mine that lives close by to give us a ride back. He didnt go for it. If it was my plane and i was going on a long distance flight, i wouldnt have gone. But at the same time, i wouldnt have left it broken for 2+ months either. I really just want to get this over with so i can move on from this club and get my own plane. The other SR20 is in better condition, but its beyond booked and its a G3 which changes the flight characteristics (and rents for more); The next time i can even get into it is Thursday... At this point I am just waiting for my CFI to tell me what i can do. I read all these Flair updates on reddit and they all are SO easy; The DPE is even helpful. My experience so far is the opposite. @thinwing Dude, might take you up on that. Im waiting to see what my CFI says; I even told him I am all for flying out to somewhere else to take the ride. It doesnt have to be in the bay area. KSAC seemed like a pretty chill airport when i was out there. My problem is that i dont know any of the other airports out there. So if he diverts me to some random place i would be pretty unprepared. Also i still have to get passed the clouds to get there; so i would still be weather dependent.

If you dont mind, let not use any names or 'scenarios' if you go to report him., I dont want it somehow being tied back to me. The plane is a SR20; Flight Club is West Valley; DPE is Tom H.... he has been around for a while so i will guess you know him. The problems with the plane weren't exactly horrible. The fuel flow gauge in the dash is a back up to the one in the avionics; The NAV2 HDI was off, but the rest of the Garmin 430 was perfectly fine. NAV1 was also fine; The biggest problem I think is probably the ALT2 light, which then causes the BATT2 breaker to pop. Some times its fine, other times its not,. so its grounding out somewhere. Oh and the #4 CHT probe is broken; it inconstantly reads bad temps. Thats been happening since my Solo XC. The plane has almost 1900 hours on it since OH, its due for a lot of TLC. I dont think its a accident waiting to happen; there are a lot of issues; but nothing that i would consider dangerous. Not every plane has redundant alternators or batteries, so i wouldn't say that its more dangerous than any of those. ' I will say that the DPE does have something against cirrus. A lot of times i was corrected with information that would work in a 172 but could be fatal in a cirrus. IE after my last test he said 'during your pre take off briefing you said you would pull the chute at above 500' on take off if the engine failed. I would never do that, you should always fly the plane. What if you were at 498' would you still do it?' I asked what my alternative was; 'You should land straight ahead'...... Uhhh, straight ahead is either the Facebook parking lot, a marsh with no smooth surfaces, or a ocean'..... No at 500' im pulling the chute and landing safely in the marsh. We then got into a discussion about impossible turns. He asked if i practiced them, i said no. He said i should and that a good pilot can make the turn back to the runway at about 1000'. Well, in a SR20 1000' is about 2nm from the airport. so you are not going to make it back. Not only that, but there are documented fatalities while trying to practice it. I want to be a safe pilot, i want to be a good pilot... I dont want to be a dead pilot. I would have been more than happy to do nor flaps or engine out at mid field at KLVK or KRHV; but not KPAO.

So I think i am about to lose my mind; I've done 1 check ride and just had another discontinuance. The first check ride this guy laid into me; Started off overcast and he said lets just do pattern work until it fog layer burns off. Great, get all of that out of the way at a airport i am familiar with. That is exactly where the good stuff ends. I was already jacked up and anxiety running high, but, Upon starting the plane i am going through my check lists and all the sudden the question start flying; 'The fuel flow gage isnt working' The ALT2 light is on, VOR2 isnt passing self test; He was about to get out of the plane at that point, but i said well, we can plaqerd the items as inop, but i cant disable or pull them. So i pull out a bunch of post-it notes and start tagging everything. None of the equipment is needed for VFR flight, and some how he just said 'what ever' and we continued. Well, that got me really rattled, but manged to get to the run up area and take off with now problems. Came back around and landed no problems. Went up again no problems, but this time he said 'now do a no flaps landing' I said 'unable, the runway is too short of this plane. He said 'BS, you can do one here', I insisted that i was not comfortable doing a no flaps landing on a 2400' runway on a 0 wind day when my GS would be higher than normal. He insisted again but this time insinuated that if i didnt the ride would be over. So i asked 'can i do it with 1 notch of flaps' he said yea. We landed with maybe 300ft of runway left with almost burning up the brakes. Well now my anxietly level is way high. We take off again and this time he asks for a short approach. We get it and he said pull the power. "here?' , 'yes here'; We had just turned down wind and were barely at the halfway point of the runway. I had always pulled power at the numbers; So i pulled the power and prayed to Jesus. I ended up slipping in my turn because i was anticipating wind like we normally have and added rudder (this was my fault) and we ended up fast and low so 'go around'. Well at this point my brain is fried. So he asked for a soft field, botched that up, went around again; This time we just went off somewhere near by and did turns around a point, that went fine; Went back did a short feild landing, that went fine. Test over. I asked about doing all the other things now that the clouds had lifted, he said since i didnt pass the first part you cant do the next part. Done Forgot to mention, when he did the fail write up; i didnt get no flaps landing credit. I asked about it, he said i didnt do a no flaps landing so no credit.... WTF, then why did you let me land with 50% flaps. Anyway. Scheduled for a week later (today); Last night went out with my CFI flew the whole test no problems; I noticed that there was a flat spot forming on the right tire; so i called maintenance an grounded the plane so they could change the tire first thing. Well wake up this morning and my schedule was cancelled with the plane off line until 4PM CRAP test is at 12. So i race 20 miles to the airport, weaving through traffic to talk with the maintenance people. They said no worries, it will be done by 11. Good. Go home and get on the treadmill to burn off some excess energy and anxiety; While on the treadmill the DPE calls, we need to start 1 hour early. I said we are unable to because the plane is in maintenance, should be ready by 11 then i have to preflight. He said he would be there at 1130. Great, so now i up the speed on the treadmill because now i just just 10 mins to get ready and go. Get to the airport at 1045, plane is still in pieces (WTF); They said it would be ready by 1130 now..... DPE shows up and we go through some paperwork... Guess what, my CFI for got to fill out IACRA for the retest and he is up in the air with another clinet. So i call txt etc. to get him back down. In the mean time the DPE leaves and goes off somewhere and tells us to call him when its ready. Go out preflight the plane, put all the same plaqards up as last time. Go back in and spend the next hour doing another IACRA with my instructor; We then get into a argument over my middle name. On my student license it just has my initial, on everything else it has my full middle name. After about 20 minutes of back and forth he said he would accept it but the FAA might now, so dont cry to him. We finally get that done and head out to the plane; I get as far as sitting in the plane when he starts pointing out the placards. I said it was the same as last time and they are not needed for VFR flight. Then he sees the one for batt2. He asked about that and what happens if batt1 fails. I said we should be fine as long as the alt doesnt fail. Not good enough. We then get into an argument because the plane is fit for VFR flight and its no worse off then a 172. He didnt care and was not going to fly in that plane. I said we can move over to the other plane but i need 20 mins to do the preflight. Nope, he has a hard stop at 230 and its now 130 and we need at least an hour to do the flight. Now im pissed and demanded my check back. At first he refused and so i threatened to pay the 10 and cancel the check... He handed it back and got out of the plane. My CFI just so happened to be walking by at the time with his other client; They talked for a bit and my CFI basically said the same thing i was saying, but the DPE wasn't budging. He eventually said he had to go and left. So here I am... I am questioning my entire flying experience. Nothing has been easy and at every turn i keep running into more walls. I have manged my way through most of them, but im to the point of exhaustion and dont know what to do any more.

Maybe the plane you are flying is different then mine; But i was afraid of stalls because i always saw the nose drop on videos and thought that would happen; One time we went up to like 6000 ft and just stayed in the stall for 3000 ft down. just kept looking up at the sky. After that i was like.... this is nothing. then we did turning stalls and i thought the wing would drop, so i just kept it in the stall waiting for the wing to drop... Eventually the guy i was with said 'uh, are you going to recover? you are fully stalled', i was like 'really cause the wing didnt drop'. 'its not always going to drop,' i guess we were only at 10* and at that bank angle it wasnt enough. After that no fear of turning stalls. Just stay coordinated and dont over react.

:0 Its my alter ego.... maybe i should put the other dog on that one i should mention is the alter ego that didnt know how to spell Samurai

Yea, i tried to get another one. They are all booked until Sept;

Yea, i was thinking the same thing. If i want to know the system its going to cost me hobbs time. Its not like they have a manual for the 430 when coupled to a Ex5000

i dont know; during the oral i got a lot of questions that i thought were directly related to IFR and had no idea why he was asking them. IE I gave him 'ARROW' and he said that wasnt sufficient... I had to look up the other 2 inspections because they are only needed for IFR certification and didn't memorize them; (altimeter inspection and static system); Then i was asked what marginal IFR was. I had a crazy question like here is a metar; if you fly in this you will be written up by the FAA why? and it was something like 060007 7SM OVC090 30/22 3166 LGTCCCCG I crossed everything off and said the only thing left is the pressure. I had to have him tell me that there is a FAR that said you cant fly when the pressure is above 31 or something like that. He asked why it would be hard to diagnose a sleeping female with hypoxia - because if they are wearing lipstick you cant tell if their lips are turning blue. Asked me to point out on the map where the minimums are 1m 512... well there was only 1 place on the sectional that had that way in the corner above the Sierra's so it took me a good 20 mins to find it since its not well defined on the printed map. He asked what the shape of a do not enter sign was.... I said it was red with white and a circle with a line through it... he still wanted to know the shape of the sign.... The only thing with navigation is he wanted to see if i read the Chart Supplement for the destination airport. He asked if we had enough room to land, i said definitely. He said do we have enough room to land and take off IE if we had a go around. I said i wasn't sure. He asked me why he asked that question, and i remembered in the chart supplement there was a NOTAM for deer on the runway and that there was a 6ft electric fence around it except for the taxi ways. So i had to look at the airport map, look at where the taxi ways were, calculated the distance of runway between the taxi ways and figure out the landing distance should a deer pop out at any of the 6 taxi ways. He asked if my plane needed a magnetic compass to take off, At first i said no because the AHARS has a compass in it; He asked if i was sure, i said i would need to look at the kinds of operations list; So i went and got the book... Turns out you do need the kerosene filled compass for VFR flight. Luckily we skipped the 'where is class e to the surface on the map, but not marked' and i had no idea. I knew the about class E airports, but i dont remember class e to the surface thats unmarked.... Unless maybe its something like firing ranges or something like that, i think thats the only thing thats unmarked. I think those are the ones i had the most trouble with. All in all i felt like they were mostly gotchya questions rather than does he know what he needs to know to survive out there... Nothing on navigation, nothing on behavior, nothing on procedure such as 2 way communication or repeating runway and SAHS instructions. Nothing on the planes performance other than how much oil does it hold. Nothing on navigation. Other than the metar, nothing on weather or winds, or types of weather maps. Didnt even look at my W/B or nav log. Nothing about night flight at all. So if you ran the FAA what would you ask? Because my experience was more 'lets ask obscure questions and see if they know how to google.'

I know how to check the maps DB; they were up to date; It was only the self test portion that i wasnt sure on; The CDI wasn't displaying the self test information on the screen and i had no idea why. I think its because i have to set the PFD nav to VOR1 and verify it, then switch to VOR2 and verify it again. There was also a message that popped up on the screen for the MFD that said 'heading data invalid' to which i said it would go away once the self test was over. He asked if i was sure and i didnt want to lie, it was mostly a guess but made logical sense. Turns out that is the right answer and the 2 430's push data to the screens during the self test. The message is making sure that you dont take off before ending the self test and fly on its test data.

Thanks for your responses everyone. I made pitty cookies last night and passed out. I feel might better today. I think if my phone rang and there was a cancellation i could jump right in and pull it off. I spent about 3 hours last night googling the start up screen with the self check page and i think i understand it now. I just need to go to the plane and verify. So there was a little confusion in the thread. 1. It wasn't a FAA bust, its a discontinuance which means the flight portion never happened. So i still get my 2 strikes or what ever they give you. 2. If i had gone forward, i am not 100% sure he would have even let me fly. So the idea of saying 'ok i failed but let me get credit' was kind of out the window. 3. No one I have talked to thinks that a student needs to know that information. Yes its important for IFR, but not really for VFR, after all thats what pilotage is all about. Its a lesson learned, as cold as it may be.

thought i would do a quick update; So i passed the oral, i got a discontinuance on the flight; Didnt even leave the parking spot; I was going through my post engine start up and whipped passed the Garmin self check screen on the 430 and he called me on it; Its a screen i was taught once but then told 'you will never need to know anything on this screen'; Well turns out i did need to know and had no clue; He gave me about 20 mins to look it up online and i couldn't find an answer and so finally he said 'you know there is a lot of smoke from those fires, the visibility is kind of low do you want to continue?' That was the hint of if i said yes, i would fail if i say no i would have another shot. So i hung my head and said no. Even since i got back home, i still cant really figure out what i am supposed to do with that screen. I have a vague idea, but the manual from Garmin sucks. So here i am, postponed another week or more until his schedule frees up. It was probably better, i was so stressed out from the oral that my stomach was really starting to hurt. I forgot to eat in the morning and my stomach was just eating itself up from stress and it was the one day i didnt bring my tums. I asked around and that was the first time anyone has ever been asked that question on a check ride; so even my CFI was a bit miffed as the flight could have been conducted as VFR with out it. But thats what all cfi's say when their students dont pass. IDK, kinda down right now.

I did PKR Lasic, went from 20/40 with astigmatism to 20/15 w/o. Best thing i have ever done.

yea, it was supposed to be the 9th. Me and my CFI found the error on the 8th when we were filling out the IACRA stuff. So make sure everything you have is right!!!! Also keep your logbook up to date and calculated; That wasted about a hour because somethings werent exactly right.

mine was because the doctor fat fingered my birthday.. He did 8/8/80 instead of 8/4/80...... They fixed the medical this morning; So the new plastic one is in the mail. But that invalidated my old medical/student license because i got that before the April 1st cut over. So now i had to request a new student license card along with requesting a ' temporary authority to exercise certificate privileges' until that arrives. I am told by the FAA that this 'should' be enough to do the check ride, but it is really up to the DME. Still waiting to hear from him if this is good enough. For now the check ride is scheduled for the 20th AM. -Sorry, I dont mean to hijack the thread.