Samurai Husky

Thanks Seth, This is a long thread and i did talk about 340a's earlier. I ruled them out for now because after joining the twin cessna forums, several of the members talked me out of it. Pretty much all of them said that i needed to build complex time first and why build complex time in a twin when it will cost you 2x as much. Its also probably more plane then i need today; Yea, the pressurization would be great for the dogs, they would have plenty of room to run around in the back, but as other members pointed out, why build time on something that will run $550/hr or more, plus the cost of a mentor pilot; Thats what brought my thinking down and started looking that the P210N's; But unless you get the Trurbo version, i hear they have some serious issues with power specifically with climb speed. Which was the whole reason for the Silver Eagle upgrade, but now you are talking well into the 600k+ range. I have seen a few specially upgraded P210N's that take the HP up to 350 but now you are back up to 300k and no glass or FIKI; Sure you can buy a low end P210n and do the Vitatoe upgrade (the other one is a Javalin, but i cant find any information on that so i guess they went under, and rocket no longer does its cessna upgrades); but the vitatoe upgrade is something around 130k; plus even finding something with glass already in it, the asking price is expensive, so with out blinking you already jump back up to 300k or more. This is what lead me to Mooney; Again, A rocket can be had for <140k glass upgrade 70k (maybe more need to do more research); So for 210k i get 200kt cruz and full glass and TKS. Though its still a 1980's plane. Which is why i started to ask about the Ovation, since the ovation already comes with a G1000 system and some with TKS; But then were back above that magic 300k; Then i saw this today http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1292535/2005-mooney-m20m-gx-bravo Which actually fits the bill i think? And its actually only 50 miles away. though it only has about 400hrs til OH. So with out pressurization, it comes down to probably a M20M or a Rocket. though the M20M i lose out on almost 300lbs of useful load. ---------------------- Man you people are fast to respond; Every time i type something out, there are 3 replied waiting!!! The common theme seems to be, the plane is too fast.. but why do i have to fly the plane at full speed? It just seems logical that if you are learning something that you would hold back on the throttle a little? Why cant i simply fly at 150kts? Also it seems that the difference in some of the suggestions of planes isnt that far off. If the plane can do 150kts and a Rocket does 200kts, is the 50kts really going to make that much of a difference? Im a pretty pragmatic person. If its too overwhelming i slow things down. If its like sailon says and learning IFR and complex is to hard, then i will simply hold off on IFR until i can fly the plane right. If anything that puts limits on what i can and cant do. TBH, feeling kinda beat up here. Every time i have my heart set on a plane and join a forum to get info, i get beat down at this rate im going to end up flying a sr20 even though i hate them....

good on the credit card then. I have 2 with 20k limits on them with out even asking. One of them is a Amex that i was going to cancel; But they say there is 'no limit' on the card as long as i call them first. I guess thats why you pay the $75/yr in fees. For the most part i think i am pretty safe being stranded for a few days; I work from home and am remote 95% of the time; There are times where i just wanted to get in a car and drive to Phoenix because it was cold and things were handled. If i had, i doubt anyone would have noticed. There was one time no one saw me for a month, as long as i got my work done, it didnt madder if i was at home or on a beach somewhere. The only time i madders is when things go horribly wrong and i need to be there to figure out whats happening.

Any plane i get after private i plan on seeking a CSI for specifically that plane. I dont look at planes like cars, where 15 mins behind the wheel and you have a feeling for the steering, braking, acceleration etc. I look at planes as one offs, meaning each one is completely different from the next. Im glad you dropped Don's name; should i decide on a Mooney, i will defiantly give him a call. The reasoning behind the Rocket was the cost/performance; I can get a Rocket for 140k, put 75k in glass and end up with plane equal or better than an Ovation 3; Granted a O3 is newer, but newer doesn't always mean better. Looking at other planes, you start to get bigger with more payload. But then i ask myself, how often will i need the extra payload? IE the P210 or A36; If 80% or more of the time its just me, or me and the dogs, going to a 6 seat might not make a lot of sense right now. If i wanted 100% safety; i would find a way to just get a SR22; But at 400k for a G3 turbo, it just doesn't seem to be worth the price. Especially with how many are flooding the market. Not only that, but i find them uncomfortable to fly; Its hard getting used to that left control stick since i am dominantly right handed. @Jim Peace Its really funny you say that; My instructor just got back from a ferry trip; Minnesota > Redding, CA; Well they never made it to Redding. They chose a small airport in south east Colorado to land and refuel; The reason for that airport is that it was far enough away from the Rockies that they would be able to get up to altitude with out circling. They had also been experiencing heavy turbulence and a strong head wind, so i am sure they were guzzling fuel. Well on landing they hit a stone an blew a tire. They had to over night a tire to this tiny little town that had no mechanic on staff. Some airport attendant offered to help and as they jacked up the plane, the jack slipped and went straight into the wing, badly damaging the wing. They had to bribe someone at the airport to drive them 150 miles to the nearest rent a car place, to then drive another 4 hours to Denver to get a flight back to then rent another car and drive 3 hours back to Redding where they both left their cars. Needless to say, it taught me a good lesson. Dont choose airports that are in the middle of no where! If you have to, stop early to refuel. A lot of people also suggested carrying spare parts if you have the payload to do so. Small things like a tire, magneto, or similar will save tons of cash should something happen in flight. Obviously you can carry one of everything, but for the things that are easy, but might not be easily found, it might make sense. Overall the more people talk about it; The less likely I am to try Chicago any time soon; being a native from there, I know full well how the weather can be completely random. I would still like to try and get to PHX sometime this year. My goal is to fly there for TG or Xmas. So maybe that will help put a timeline on what i am thinking as far as long distance flying goes. Chicago would be nice by next summer. Weather the trip is in a Mooney or not; I think we are still debating that. Right now I have been happy just flying in circles working on my corsswind patterns You say ultra high limits; Whats considered a ultra high limit?

IDK, I look at flying as more then 'just learning' For me its a life long dream that i never thought was possible. Growing up I ALWAYS wanted to be a pilot; Unfortunately my grandfather died in a plane crash when i was 5, because of that, my mother discouraged me at every opportunity of going down that road. So i just never thought it was even a consideration. Honestly, it wasn't until maybe 2 years ago that i came to the realization that its not to late, but after looking at the costs and the amount of money it would take, i brushed it off and continued to work; What a difference 2 years makes, major promotion, a few good moves in the market and now I came to realize that financially this is possible. But even then, i entered in with a very pessimistic view. Yea, i can afford one. The question became, can i actually fly one. I was never very good at book learning, never really good at school in general, so i had the fear that i would start this and realize how far over my head i actually was. But you know what? I gobbled up ground school like it was a best selling novel. The concepts, ideas, reasons all just made sense and it clicked. Then I actually started to physically fly a plane; The fear here is, would i be able to do that, and honestly the jury is still out on this one. Maybe its just how a Cirrus flies, but to me it's uncomfortable. I am definitely making progress, but i know I have a long way to go. For the past few weeks i have only been able to fly once a week because of various factors. weather, schedule, instructor availability, plane availability etc. and it is literally KILLING me. Maybe this is something that all new pilots go through, but i really feel like a kid learning to drive and cant wait to get back in the pilot seat again. Maybe after 500 hours the excitement subsides and it becomes more about the destination than the journey, only time will tell on that. Like in the Twin forums, a lot of people confused my enthusiasm with over zealousness. I take flying very seriously, I know that there are a million and 1 things that i will need to learn in the next 500 hours. As they say, experience is earned not learned. I like the idea of jumping into a complex and hiring a teacher to get me up to speed; I think there is more value to gain experience in your own plane than a rental. Which is why i would rather buy what i want up front and then treat it 'like' a rental until i am comfortable. So thats a little bit more about me. Maybe that helps, maybe it doesnt. Im not afraid of being told things i dont want to hear as i just got a bunch of that from the twin forums. One of the concerns i have is plane creep; Again, you start looking at 60k bonanza's and before you know it your looking at a 500k SR22, back down to 100k J's back up to 300k p210n's back down to 150k rockets; back up to 300k Ovations. I have the feeling that a P210n is just way more then i will need 90% of the time and why pay that much more for the extra 10% when you can just rent.

Ah so on the Topic of what i said about my job; that probably came off too dramatic. Its not like i am a doctor or something where i have to fly back and deliver a baby. I work in IT, so while under most circumstanced things are stable, if something decides to blow up, a company will be down, means i have to fly back and fix the problem. There are other engineers here in the bay area that could start the initial troubleshooting and there is always instances where i can do some things remote, but i am the #1 guy and the responsibility falls on me. The chances of running into a situation where 'I HAVE TO GET BACK NOW!' are pretty slim however. I think if i were caught in a situation like that AND the weather was bad, I would go back Commercial. There are about 10 flights a day from PHX to any of the 3 airports here in the bay (SJC/OAK/SFO) so i could probably get a last minute South West flight back home and then just Uber from there to the work site. Would it be expensive? yes, would i curse my self for having to do it, yes, but it would be my own fault for taking the risk. What does a J or F get you that a 20k Rocket doesn't? When i look at the rocket, i read posts of people flying up high running LoP and getting 200kts at 16gph, when i look at the other Mooney's, it looks like yea they can do 200kts, but at 24gph. 8gph@$5/g is a extra 40/h *4 and that one flight now just costs an extra $160 *2 and thats a extra $320 round trip cost. I know planes are expensive and $320 is nothing, but that doesnt mean i shouldn't consider things like this, right? Again, the fear with buying a step down is having losing the money on resale; I mean if the rocket was pressurized i would have paid 300k for it and that would be my forever plane (or at least until i have kids, which at this rate might be a long way away);

I looked at the pipers, they were expensive and kinda slow; I think a beechcraft would be better than that? As far as a Screaming Eagle; I cant even find one for sale when i do a search. Which is probably why it wasn't in my list. @carusoam 1. Not sure what you mean, Its not really a plastic bag, you can see that there are breathing holes to let CO2 escape. 2. Like any device i would need one to see how it works; The reviews have been positive and they do make o2 saturation meters for dogs, so if i wanted to go full speed, i could get one of those just to be sure. I also have a vet in the family that i would consult. Its a fixed flow system, so in reality nothing keeps it from flowing to fast or slow; It might be something where i do a O2 meter and have to figure out the best settings. They absolutely will not go into a kennel; They will do more damage to themselves trying to get out than if i let them pass out @14kft. Needless to say, Im not about to take any chances with my dogs that could endanger them. If hoods dont work out, then i guess i am stuck at 8kft, but that also doesn't mean that i cant do test runs and at least try. If i got one (non-pressurized plane), I would probably fly my vet cousin out for a week and we would go fly down to PHX with the dogs, I would have her take vitals on the way and see how they are doing. 6. My instructor wants me to get a Cirrus. He is a die hard Cirrus fan boy and is very passionate about them. I think he even dropped hints that he would be willing to go into a partnership on a new one, but that just sounds like a bad idea. When i told him i wanted a Mooney he said 'Mooneys are good planes, but they are like old Cadillac. They were all people were talking about years ago and now they are just old cars. A Cirrus is like a Tesla, modern new and luxurious, its the new Cadillac' My instructor is Max Trescott; He wrote books on the G1000, IFR flight, WAAS etc. Im sure you can google him and find out everything you need to now Nothing keeps me from renting, other than the cost, availability and the excessive requirements that need to be met in order to rent out a non-trainer plane. The rentals available to a low time pilot are pretty strict and once you move up into the better airplanes, they get much more expensive. For example, to rent a SR22 its about $350/hr wet. Though I am glad you brought this up because i went and checked our flying clubs site and it seems we do have a Mooney Acclaim M20TM/G1 for rent for $300/hr wet. but you need the following: 250 hours, 25 hours high performance, and 25 hours retractable. Instrument rating required. Minimum checkout time 5 hours unless at least 20 previous hours in make/model. So there is an additional cost for a check out as well. Which is something like 10hr for $250/hr or a 3hr min with a CFI. I get the feeling that people think im 22 years old and on day one going to shoot up to 17999ft and fly to phonix on my own. Rest assured im not careless. Im 35 and drive a volt, excessive risk isnt in my vocabulary. So backing up a little; I'm at a place right now with interest rates, cash flows etc. where I can justify being able to buy a plane and afford it. So long as i stick to buying something in my price range, i will have no problems making payments and maybe even paying it down quicker. IF interest rates start going up, then i have a problem, which is the reason for me rushing a little. I would like to lock in the lower rates as i do feel we will be looking at 3% or more by next year, which on a plane loan puts it at about 8-9% vs 4.9%; That's about 10k difference per year and pays for many hours of flying. My thought process is to lock in the better rates, get a plane, find a 'Mooney' instructor and then use my plane to get my IFR, Complex etc. Once i have those then i can start planning trips and worrying about dogs etc. I dont know how hard IFR is, but i've gotten through Private Pilot Ground school in about 2 weeks. IF i were to go on a trip before IFR, it would be to PHX and through Palm Springs, which is lower than 10kft to get through (as someone else mentioned); By all means ask me more questions if you think you can better help me; Im not holding anything back, more or less just trying to keep the posts from turning into autobiography's.

So about the dogs; I already did research on that and found this: http://www.4pawsaviation.com/products/oxygen-hoods.php The hood unzipps in the front and can be held back with a snap; That way when its time to go up, i just have to zip close the flap and turn on the o2. From what i understand this works 100x better than regular masks and has an endorsement from some vets that now use these instead of o2 cages, since the cages lose pressure every time you open them to check the dogs vitals. My dogs can tolerate cones of shame, and thats basically what this is; Also i can put on ear muffs and they wont be able to take them off with the cone on. This is only of course if i am going up over 10k. I am imagining the dogs will come with me about 80% of the time; Anytime i go somewhere that i will go hiking, i plan on taking them with; The only time i wouldn't bring them would be for a day trip somewhere. What is so important about AC? Here in the bay area, it rarely gets above 90F and once you are up at 10k ft it gets pretty cold; So how long are you really running the AC for? unless i am missing something? For Training:Yep not going cheap on this one. I went with the best instructor money can buy and I am definitely paying for it. He's a Master CSI, Gold Seal CFI. CFII, MEI. Advanced Ground Instructor and Instrument Ground Instructor, has written many books, etc etc etc. I wanted someone that i could train with from Private to IFR to ME; I must say, he is very good; I'm forced to fly the plane 99% of the time and he just jumps in if im doing something wrong where it could endanger us. Even if im not comfortable, I got the controls Though if i were to get a Mooney, I would hire someone Mooney Specific to train me on it. The funny thing about planes is that it SO easy to have plane creep; i start looking at one plane for 50k and then next thing i know im looking at a 300k p210n.

LOL. so this goes back to the original question. How much less of a plane is a Ovation Vs a Rocket? For example; I love the glass in the Ovation since it closely matches what i am using now in the Cirrus, But i could add in a G500+750+ a bunch of other stuff and still be at or below the cost of a Ovation with a G1000; Really it was this plane that really got me even looking at the Mooneys; http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20K+305+ROCKET&listing_id=2178772&s-type=aircraft But then once i started to look at Mooneys, i started to look at 'all' of the Mooney's; From what i can tell people that have them, love them and the people that are selling, in general are moving up to much larger planes, or newer versions of the one that they have. When i talk to Cessna people, they are always talking about 'upgrading' to the next model to get more performance or more something because its 'lacking' in something. When i talk to Cirrus people; They love the plane, but complain about space; Which i agree with, i tried to sit in the back seat and it was like the back seat of a Mustang. When i talk to beechcraft people, they complain how much they cost to run or how much the annuals are. As you can tell, I have been around the block a few times already! Im just trying not to make a mistake; I would have literally bought a 340a on day 1 (even found one i liked) had it not been for a forum full of people saying i was nuts. Just trying to see if im nuts or if this is doable. I dont want to buy something and then be disappointed because i wanted it to do 10 but then find out it only does 8.5 and if you want it to do 10 its a 100k upgrade.

I looked at the Skylanes; I figured the 210s would be better; But again, boils down to speed; I know for sure that the sirrus is to small; I figured the Mooney was slightly larger with a better top end especially since i could fold down the steats and let the dogs bounce betten the luggage area and the back seats (which is what i do with my car now, lower the back seats and let the float between the trunk and back seats). I had also been looking at beechcrafts as someone told me to look at bonanza's; But those are about the same price as a 210 and you lose out on pressurization. I know that under 200k and i can fly the hell out of a single engine airplane; When i was looking at the twins, i was prepared to spend the 200k for a 340a and then close to 100k /y to fly it (though that included the loans on the plane); Even that the 565/hr to fly it, i thought i could get in about 80 hours a year, but i would be running very lean on my finances. I figured that a Rocket would be about 160/hr to fly + fixed costs of about 34k/yr in fixed costs including loan payments. The idea is once I out grow this plane, i would transition into a twin, so it doesn't have to be full size right now; Im still single and no kids that i know of ;P So its just me and the dogs; I would like to take friends places, so that might be 2-3 adults, if i find someone then it would be me her and 2 dogs and luggage. So i figured the 1132lbs useful in the rocket, -200lbs for me and if i fill the tanks another 600 in gas still leaves me 332lbs for other (dogs are another 150lbs for the 2); which leaves 182lbs for either another person, or another person and luggage. If i didn't fill the tanks and it was a shorter flight then i could get more people in.

Sorry about the brevity of the last post, i was sittingin the lobby waiting for my flight instructor so i was typing it out on my iphone. So to answer a few questions. 1." Take the money and sell very wide strangles on SPY....use the profit for airline tickets for chicago and phx " I actually made a bit of money shorting oil. Right now i have about $410k sitting in a bank account (haven't paid taxes on it yet); The idea was to take out a HELC on my house since its doubled in price in the last 8 years, I now have about 540k equity. I idea was to put that $410k into a REIT and some other dividend paying stocks and then use the dividend to pay for flying. Based on what i am looking at, it should yield about 38k/year after taxes; I would use the HELC to pay for the taxes and plane as i can get a 4.9% 30yr fixed + have the option to move some of it into a 2.5% variable. Something happens i can always sell out of my investments, pay off the loan and not worry about the house. 2. Weather; My first ride was in a high turbulence environment; There was a storm moving in and we were tossed around like a rag doll. My instructor told me that was the first time he ever took someone up in weather like that and can see why. So i have instantly found respect for weather since it wasnt even 'that bad'; 99% of flights from here to PHX are through desserts and low mountains, but even then, based on what i have read, i wouldn't even thing about going if there was a front about to/or just came through. I wouldn't think about going Chicago by myself for a while; I defiantly want to get IFR before then and its a lot cheaper to get IFR in your plane then to rent one. 3. For the mechanic; There is a Mooney service center about 50 miles from here at Stockton Airport. There is also Wolfe Aviation at that same airport; Both have experience with Mooney Rockets; Wolfe actually has one they are helping to sell that they have been maintaining for several years; The reason i looked at the Rocket wasnt just for speed (but there is a good reason for wanting it, more later); But its something that i can easily grow into. With a SR20, i feel that after about 6 months of being on my own, i would be looking to upgrade. It just doesnt have room to haul 2 dogs in. When i look at other planes, you can get more carry, but at a steep speed penalty. The reason for speed is really for 1 reason; I have family down in Phoenix and it would be nice to go down and see them with out taking PTO time. Since i work from home 95% of the time, I am trying to convince my boss to be able to let me work remote with the understanding where if i need to be back in the bay area ASAP i can. Some of these smaller planes will only do 120kts - 150knts and if i have a head winds, much lower. So i want to (if i had to) make it back in the bay area within 4 hours or less. I figure speed is something up cant really upgrade to with out selling a plane. From what i can see online, planes dont sell that quickly. Its like selling a RV, you have to wait for the right buyer at the right time and it can take years unless you heavily discount the plane. So instead of losing money on the discount, i figure i would be better off just not flying the plane at full speed and slowly doing things as I feel comfortable. I wanted to keep what ever i get for at least 8yrs, before i think about an upgrade and i just think life will force me to upgrade before then if i got something smaller. Forgot to mention; The reason i dont fly commercial is because of my dogs; They don't do well at doggy hotels, believe me i have tried. One is a rescue and both were arrested for killing a chicken.....I know.... But they ended up in the pound for 2 weeks before i could get them out and so cannot be caged. So right now i end up driving down to PHX from here which is about 11 hours, because of this, i really only see my family once a year at Christmas or thanksgiving when i can get the time off. With flying, at least I can throw the dogs in the back seat and go; Even if its something like a 3 day weekend, it makes it possible now to go see them.

I'm out of kpao; yea, I have spent a good amount of time browsing the forums, which is why i decided to open a new topic as the question was specifically towards learning in a rocket. i just didn't know if that was too much plane for some one just starting out. I plan on being done with my pp by end of May/ early June. if it was, then I was looking for other opinions. Thanks for the quick replies

Hi Everyone! I hope you have some coffee ready, because this will be a long post. Right now I am in the process of getting my private pilot. Since i have absolutely fallen in love with all aspects of flying (even ground school!) i decided that once i do get my license, that i would buy a plane. Early on in the process i was actually looking at twins, specifically a C340a. So i joined the twin cessna group and got a lot of feed back. In the end i was convinced by several members that going into a twin this early would be foolish and that i should work my way up. I then started to look at P205n's to get the pressurization, but those seemed really expensive and unless you get a turboprop, pretty slow. That said, one of the members suggested i look at Mooney's; The missions is as follows: Currently Single w/ 2 Huskies (hence the name); Flights would be from the California Bay Area to Phoenix (4+ times a year), Chicago (maybe 2x per year), The rest relatively local i.e San Diego, Tahoe, Seattle, etc. I would also like to eventually venture up into Alaska. That being said, I would prefer something that i could get to Phoenix in 1 go (approx 550nm+reserves); Chicago in Maybe 1 stop (1500nm); Has Decent carry capacity where i may take up to 3 people and luggage. The other key component was not to spend all day in a plane, especially for longer flights like Phoenix and Chicago. All this being said, I started to look at Rocket 305's; which are older, and have older avionics in them vs something newer. But based on the posts, people seem to love them, they are quick and have a decent payload capacity when compared to the other Mooney's. My flight instructor wants me to get a SR22 since i am learning in a SR20. But the prices on those are pretty steep and for the price range i am in, i would be looking at a 1st generation, maybe 2nd generation. So my question is, If you had between 150k-200k what would you get? Is a rocket worth buying and then upgrading the avionics? or is it better to get something like a ovation or beechcraft that has more up to date electronics but has less payload and flies a bit slower? I have seen similar questions like this pop up in the past, but those posts are now over 3 years old and not sure if the plane climate has changed. Thanks in advance!