jcovington

I use GPS so I am reporting distance to the middle of the field. Jim

I agree. I did not intend to imply that entering the 45 gives separation. It does give the best shot at seeing the traffic in the pattern so you can blend in. I though that I was blending in. It didn't work like I expected. Jim

Actually, I do. I did not have the knowledge nor had I conceived of someone turning crosswind to downwind at midfield. I certainly did not look for them there. I didn't look for them on the approach end either. We try to fly a standard pattern to limit the places we have to look for conflicting traffic. I looked where I though he would be. I was wrong. You can't know what you don't know. Now that I understand flying a pattern this way is possible I will certainly alter my flying to be sure it doesn't happen again. I certainly did not ignore the Warrior traffic. I was on a 45 entry for about 500 miles due to my flight path. I had heard him make several position calls during a couple of T&Cs. I had canceled IFR 20 nm out so I could listen for traffic and make my position reports. I had a fairly decent feel for the timing of his circuits. I had no reason to think he was flying a short pattern. I looked during the time I was in the vicinity of the airport on the 45 and after I turned downwind. Short of circling on the 45 I am not sure what else I could do. I did not expect a conflict because I expected the Warrior was behind me but it wasn't for whatever the reason. Jim

For those that are interested I have attached the FlightAware track of the last few minutes of myflight. You can see the circle I made on downwind. It is fairly close to midfield downwind. Unfortunately, the Warrior is not ADS-B equipped and was out of Huntsville radar coverage so I don't have that track. Jim

I do not believe nor I have stated that I am innocent. As I have stated in other messages there are many chains in an accident or near accident. I could have stopped the sequence at the start by entering the pattern differently. The Warrior could have maneuvered differently. I don't believe that I barged into the traffic pattern. I entered on a 45 as recommended. I entered the pattern on the downwind with the Warrior traffic on crosswind. I communicated my position and I listened to the Warrior position calls. I tried to find the traffic and failed until we were converging. I did the best I could with the information that I had at the time. In hindsight, I made some decisions that I wouldn't in the future. I did not anticipate someone turning crosswind to downwind at about the midfield point. Maybe I should have but I didn't. As far as an accusation, I am not accusing the CFI of anything since I have no proof. I am only stating my opinion of what happened. If I had proof we wouldn't be having this conversation. Jim

I hope you are right. I am afraid he feels he did nothing wrong and there isn't anything to be gained. I certainly have been going over this a lot to try to determine what I can do differently. This thread and the comments have changed the way I looked at the incident. I will change my pattern entry the next time I am presented with a similar situation and hopefully break the first link in the chain. Any accident or near accident has several links in the chain. The Warrior had several opportunities to avoid the situation. I did too. As has been stated in this thread I can only change my part of it. Jim

Sounds good to me. I don't dislike the CFI and I don't know the student. I had hoped to have a discussion with the CFI on the ramp to get his take on the flight and what happened. Any comment I made to him was immediately defensive so I gave up. Given the proper circumstance I will try again but I am not hopeful for a different outcome. Jim

No, I don't believe that he deliberately wanted to cause a mid air. I believe that he saw us and maneuvered to turn in front of us deliberately. I am guessing he was showing me he had right away and I should give way. It worked. I got that lesson. I do not know this to be the case. I only think it is. I can't accuse someone on a belief without proof. I have no idea how to prove he deliberately turned in front of me. Jim

100% agree. I have no intention of confronting the CFI. I do intend to stay as far away as possible especially in the pattern. Jim

I too fly my Mooney to mix in with others. I slowed the plane on the 45 entry, dropped the gear and was at my downwind speed before entering downwind. I am not sure where you are getting that I was screaming in. I was moving quickly approaching the 45 entry and I was listening to the Warrior pilot make his position calls so I knew where he was in the pattern (sequencing in as you said). I though (wrongly) that he would fly a standard pattern and carrying some extra speed would keep us separated. I did keep my speed up some (~10 kts) on the 45 entry. I certainly wasn't going any faster in the downwind than normal. I certainly could have exited the pattern. I have traffic on crosswind that I don't have in sight. Which way do I go? Right would take me closer to him, left might make me turn into him. Straight ahead in this case was exactly the wrong direction because that is where he was entering downwind. Climb probably would have worked as I was reasonably sure he wasn't above me. Jim

Or you have a macho attitude and refuse to give any quarter. The CFI and I have had words in the past (with me and others). I have reasons to believe that the close turn in front of us was deliberate. Jim

Me too. It seriously scared my wife and me. Jim

It was a Warrior so the wing was not blocking his view as I was above until he turned downwind. The CFI's comment and the Warrior radio calls indicate that they had us in sight and did not maneuver to avoid. I believe that the CFI felt he had right of way and wasn't going to give. He may have mistakenly believed we had him in sight and should be giving way (I would if I had seen him). Before downwind I was looking in the wrong place for the Warrior. After entering downwind the Warrior was hidden by the fuselage and I couldn't see them. Jim

The traffic pattern is right traffic for 36 at KMDQ. He was in a right crosswind while I was in a right downwind. That puts him low and right which is a difficult place to see. The Warrior did a very short upwind and I am guessing was aimed in the downwind direction so he would be able to turn in front of me. The wind was about 15 kts out of the north so I am sure that contributed to the Warrior making his crosswind to downwind turn about midfield. He continued to make a long downwind, normal base and long final before the next touch and go. His wind compensation wasn't very good but not abnormal for a student pilot. Jim

No, I did not see him at this point when I made the 45 entry. I was not looking far enough down the runway to spot him. You are correct. Both planes would take about 2 minutes to close the distance. I did not think we were heading for the same position as I assumed his upwind would be longer. A normal pattern (yes, I know that doesn't really exist) would be crosswind traffic behind the 45 entry traffic turning to downwind. I though by keeping my speed up I was avoiding a conflict. I was wrong. However, in 20 years of flying I haven't encountered a plane turning crosswind to downwind at midfield. Now I have. I won't make that mistake again. Jim

I did not see the Warrior on crosswind as I was looking in the wrong place and later he was blocked by the fuselage. I saw him just before he turned to downwind and for a few seconds on downwind as he continued to climb. As soon as I spotted him I turned to the left (right downwind for 36) so my visibility of the Warrior was a short period on crosswind (< 2 seconds) and a couple of seconds on downwind while I made the avoidance turn. The two planes were very close. I am pretty sure it qualified as a formation flight :). Jim

You are misunderstanding the locations of the airplane. The Warrior was on crosswind and I was on downwind. The Warrior came from low and right at a couple hundred feet and turned to downwind in front of me to continue his climb. He had me in sight as evidenced by his call asking if I had him in sight. I did not have him in sight since he was low and to my right so blocked by the fuselage. Trust me regardless of who had right away if I had seen him I would have broken off the pattern. As soon as the Warrior turned in front of me I broke off and reentered the pattern behind the Warrior. The Warrior never deviated from his pattern and pretty much ignored the conflict. I never said that I expected the student pilot to figure out how fast I was going. I asked the CFI if he realized how fast I was going. My intention of carrying extra speed was to avoid a conflict. It never entered my mind that the CFI/student would turn downwind approximately midfield. Now I know. See, I am learning :). Why do you feel that the Warrior did not share the see and avoid responsibility? I am certain he saw be based on his radio call and the CFI comments after the fact. Jim

Perhaps I am naive but then why do we have recommendations published for our use? When I am mixing with other traffic in the pattern I try to be both polite and safe. Sometimes I need to speed up and sometimes I need to slow down. I expected the speed to give me separation and to not interfere with the Warrior pattern. I was wrong in this case. I don't see how to have a visual on traffic at all times in the pattern. You have to depend somewhat on situational awareness of what the traffic is doing. I was definitely looking for him just apparently not in the right place. When I was established on downwind the Warrior was low and to my right. Very much a blind spot for me. Keep in mind that the conflict occurred about mid-field downwind. I had been established for a while and was in clear sight of the Warrior. I did not descend into the pattern. I was at pattern altitude on the 45 entry. I was slowing to put the gear out on the 45 so it was fairly quick. The Warrior was climbing on crosswind so he was below and to the right. The Warrior continued to climb after turning downwind. I could tell since I had a front row seat :). I never spoke to the student. My conversation was with the CFI. I was not inclined to apologize since the turn from crosswind to downwind was too close to another aircraft and should not have been performed. That turn is my biggest problem with the encounter. Jim

I realize that I was going fast on the 45 entry. Part of that was the late descent from ATC. Putting the gear down on the 45 entry did put me at pattern speed before turning downwind. The other part was that I have flown the Warrior both as a pilot and as instructor. It is a very slow airplane especially in a climb. I intentionally kept the speed high so that I would join downwind in front of the Warrior thinking that would avoid any conflict and wouldn't interfere with his pattern work. I did not expect the Warrior to fly a close in pattern. In hindsight I should have let him go first and I will in the future. What bothers me most about this entire incident is the Warrior pilot/cfi assuming that because they had right away that they could continue the pattern and I would give way. The only way that works is if I had him in sight which was a bad assumption in this case. Had the positions been reversed I would have maneuvered to avoid the conflict regardless of who has right away. Even if this event is entirely my fault and the Warrior is completely innocent I can not accept that making a turn from crosswind to downwind within a few hundred feet of another airplane is acceptable. We all have a see and avoid responsibility regardless of who has right away. The call "Mooney do you have the Warrior in sight?" just before the Warrior turned to downwind tells me that they intended to continue no matter what. What if I was a student pilot and my startle response had been to yank back the throttle and pitch up? It could have easily resulted in an accelerated stall. In my case I pulled the throttle and pushed over before starting the turn to give us some separation. Jim

I did not mean to imply that I was putting the blame on him. A mid-air or near miss is both parties fault. I certainly could have done some things differently to avoid the conflict and will in the future. I am certainly guilty of expecting pilots to fly a standard pattern. I will be more vigilant and scan for traffic across the entire field to, hopefully, avoid future conflicts. Jim

The AIM says that the cross-wind turn should be made once past the departure end of the runway and within 300 ft of pattern altitude. The Warrior was using 500 ft AGL as his cross-wind turn location. Doing this puts them in a different position on cross-wind depending on wind and touchdown point. Of course, the AIM is advisory so he was certainly within his rights to do what he did. I just don't think it is a good practice. I expected the Warrior to be off the end of the runway on cross-wind not close to midfield. I won't make that mistake again. Jim

A few months ago we had an interesting discussion on what to do with a pilot that you think is doing something unsafe. I was thinking about that thread in the aftermath of a close encounter with another plane in the pattern. I chose the route of speaking to the pilot/CFI. The incident: We were returning from six days touring Canada with the Interprovincial Air Tour (IPAT). Great trip with some great people. We were in-bound to the airport from the northeast with a northerly wind so I was already set up for a 45 entry to the right downwind. I was handed off from Memphis Center to Huntsville approach about 35 nm north and needing to descend from 8000 ft. Huntsville approach stepped us down from 8000 to 6000 to 4000 as we approached the airport. 14 nm out, I canceled IFR and switched over to CTAF. We were moving pretty fast with the north tailwind and the speed from descending. There was a Warrior with what sounded like a student pilot in the pattern doing touch and goes. I called inbound at 14, 10, 8 and 4 nm as is my normal practice. At the 4 nm on the 45 entry call the Warrior was just lifting off for the next circuit. I was still descending on the 45 entry so I had to slow to put the gear down and had settled into my normal 100 kts downwind speed. He called crosswind and I started looking for him off the end of the runway in the normal crosswind position. I expected to be in front of him with no conflicts. I couldn’t find him and proceeded to turn downwind. I made a downwind call and the Warrior responded with “Do you have the Warrior in sight?” Before I could answer I saw the Warrior 50 feet below and off the right nose. He continued to climb and entered the downwind a couple hundred feet ahead of us. I yanked the throttle back and started an immediate left turn to avoid the plane. I called reentering the pattern and proceeded to land after the Warrior. Aftermath: We unloaded the plane and put it away in the hangar. We stopped by the FBO for a nature break and so I could speak to the front desk. I asked who was flying the Warrior and if he was a student pilot. I was told that he was and I said that he needed some remedial training in pattern operations with his instructor. I was told that his instructor was on board. After I got over that shock I dropped it and proceeded to take care of nature. When I was leaving the FBO the Warrior was shut down on the ramp and I decided to go speak to the instructor. I am assuming at this point that they didn’t see us and it was a mistake. Me: “Do you know how close that was?” CFI: “Yes, you were pretty close to us.” (with a laugh) Me: “I was close to you?” CFI: “Yes, you made your call on a 4 nm 45 entry when we were on crosswind” Me: “Do you know how fast I was going?” CFI: “You should have slowed to VFR traffic pattern speed.” Me: “I had already slowed to gear extension speed and pattern speed. You should not have flown a tight pattern.” CFI: “I turned the crosswind at my normal 500 feet AGL as I always do.” At this point, I turned around and walked off because I wasn’t getting anywhere. Any point I brought up was met with a dismissive attitude of “I didn’t do anything wrong and it is all your fault.” Analysis: This is what I believe happened: • The Warrior lifted off at 500 ft AGL as stated. The runway is 6000 ft so I suspect this was midfield or so. The student (as most students do) failed to compensate for the wind during the crosswind leg. This put the airplane about 1/3 of the way down the field on crosswind. • I expected the pattern to be flown as the AIM recommends and the turn to crosswind to be off the end of the runway which puts you behind the traffic entering on a 45. I didn’t look toward mid-field which is where the traffic was located. • Since we were flying right traffic, the Warrior was below the window and hidden from my view. • This is the point that I have thought long and hard about. I believe that the CFI and the student saw us on downwind and maneuvered to turn in front of us from their crosswind, which is why the CFI thought the incident funny when I approached him. I at least take some comfort in this thought in that he was at least maneuvering to stay away from us. I also think it is probably the dumbest pilot trick I have ever seen. Maybe I am wrong but it is the only explanation I can find for his behavior. He should have been as raddled as I was and yet he was very nonchalant about the entire incident. • If I am correct that the behavior was deliberate, then he seriously underestimated the closure rates. The Warrior was probably climbing at 70 kts. I was doing 100 kts indicated with a tailwind. We had at least a 30 kt closure and it could have been 40 kts. • My guess is that the CFI felt that he had right away and he may well have. Giving way to another aircraft only works if you have them in sight. The whole see and avoid is the responsibility of both planes. If he had me in sight (how can you miss a Mooney 200 feet above you in your windshield), it is also his responsibility to avoid us. Other than staying away from this CFI and his students in the pattern I am not sure what else to do. One of the FBO managers was in the office and heard the exchange I had with the front desk. The other FBO manager is a good friend of mine, the CFI’s employer, and the owner of the rental Warrior. I will probably talk to him but I don’t believe it will make much difference. All in all, a pretty disturbing end to an otherwise great trip.

Something else to think about although it doesn't sound like exactly the same problem. A few years ago I helped a C172 owner diagnose some odd problems with his panel lighting. I don't recall the fuse blowing but the rheostat became very warm and the lights dimmed in random fashions. Turned out that someone performing a panel upgrade years earlier had soldered the new lights onto the rheostat rather than the light controller. Instead of having the rheostat supply a small current to control the transistors within the light controller it was attempting to dim the panel lights directly. Didn't work very well. The solution was to move the wire to the controller side and everything worked well afterwards. Jim

Once again, I am going to try to close out this thread with results of the prop replacement. The prop arrived back in Georgia on March 7th and I picked up the plane on the 11th. We have put about 17 hours on the prop and so far no issues. Both blades are tight with very little movement. When the prop arrived back at New Mexico Propeller they didn't think that the looseness of the blade was too bad. That surprised me. I don't have details on what was done to the prop but it looks like at least the hub housing was retained as that serial number didn't change. I can tell that the blades have been replaced but I don't know about the hub internals. New Mexico Propeller stood behind their work and did not charge for the second service. I did have to pay for labor to remove the prop and shipping but that was my only cost. Overall, I am happy to have the plane back and my trust in the plane is growing. I feel like New Mexico Propeller did a good job on the prop and wouldn't have a problem using them again. I hope I don't have to reopen this thread but if anything happens again with the prop I'll let everyone know. Jim

The inverter is located in the overhead headliner very close to the EL panel (2 to 3 inches away). As I recall I had to drop the headliner to access the inverter. From my notes (2008, my how time flies) the inverter is LP105A in the parts manual and is an ERG LPS28-3-3P. I have attached the specs below. It is probably a commercially available part but I just ordered both parts from Dan at LASAR for convenience. I believe the inverter was about $100.00. It is fairly easy to check the inverter. From the spec sheet for the part number an LPS28-3-3P will take in 28VDC and output 120 Vms. A DMM on the AC scale will show if you have voltage on the pins on the connector. If you have voltage but no light the inverter is good and the panel is bad. Something less than 120 AC will cause the panel to be dim. In my searching for a replacement panel there are places that repair EL panels. I kept my old panel and may try the repair route next time. Jim lps.pdf