testwest

Awesome data, knute! If you have a stock(ish) cowl on your E you are getting very respectable speeds at those conditions. I was intrigued with your posts and was hoping to see some pictures, have you thought about posting some of your plane?

Some updates to this thread, I am copying some data from a PM to KSMooniac for everyone's benefit: The latest STC'ed 3 blade MT prop (2007) for E's F's and J's is the MTV-12-B/180-59b. It has a swept leading edge profile similar to the Hartzell Top Prop BA...and is probably about as good as the Hartzell BA 2-blade prop for top speed. In case folks did not know, in addition to much better blade profiles and twist distributions achievable only with the latest computer-aided design and manufacturing techniques, these new props sweep the leading edge of the prop signficantly near the tip. Local prop tip mach numbers at high RPM cruise can approach transonic, and the LE sweep helps reduce the tip drag. The Vans RV guys are really rabid about trying out new props and other speed/efficiency ideas, as experimental amateur-built airplanes they have signficantly more freedoms than we do but their very lively forum on the Vans Air Force website has several informative posts that us Mooniacs may find useful, like this one: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=35385 and this one: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=251517#post251517 Some RV folks have found the 2-blade Hartzell BA to be faster, but on page 8 of the second (long) thread above is the following which is probably as credible as any post there: On this Hartzell vs MT comparison, here is some data I gathered while doing Flight Testing on an airframe using an IO-360 Series 180 HP Lycoming; Using the same baseline Flight Test a/c article (i.e. same s/n and no other Mods but the propellers), the following 4 propellers were tested: MTV-12-B/180-17 MTV-12-B/183-59b Hartzell 74 [in] 2 blade metal propeller Hartzell 76 [in] 2 blade composite propeller ("canoe paddles") All test data was obtained in a stable non-turbulent air mass with a near standard lapse rate and no inversions; The engine mixture setting was set at 150°F rich (best power) and power was calculated from a digital power model I created from the Lycoming published nominal power chart for the tested engine. Test points were gathered from about 1.3 Vs to the MCP maximum level airspeed for the tested density altitude and same aircraft configurations (i.e. clean). Data was only collected when all parameters had been stable for a few minutes. All data was reduced to referred power and referred speed using test BHP, SAT (Static Air Temperature), pressure altitude and, test point weight at time of measurement (a/c was weighed prior to the Flight Test and fuel burned taken from the totalizer). This method essentially brings the data to sea level standard day condition at a unique reference weight (usually max T-O weight); Hence, we are in a position to compare apples with apples. All test instrumentation had recently been calibrated. Assuming the MTV-12-B/180-17 as the baseline propeller, that is what I observed for 180 BHP(REFERRED): - Hartzell 2 blade metal prop: +4.5 KEAS - MTV-12-B/183-59b: +6.0 KEAS - Hartzell 2 blade composite: +6.0 KEAS Further analysis for that that airframe w/MTV-12-B/183-59b propeller revealed that the peak efficiency of that configuration using 135 BHP corresponded to an RPM following : RPMPEAK = 2450 + (pressure altitude/100) FWIW, I have found our Hartzell -F7497 2 blade BA Top Prop to be incredibly smooth, and there are no yellow arc restrictions like with the McCauley C212. I sold my old McCauley as is for $1900 on Barnstormers without much trouble. The Hartzell is less expensive than the MT, looks pretty cool on the ground, and is faster than the McCauley (3 ish knots or so) with about the same weight. The MT is more expensive, looks REALLY cool on the ground, "probably" climbs better than the Hartzell, and will be faster than the McCauley, and probably around the same speed as the Hartzell while being lighter. A back to back comparison of the Hartzell -F7497 and the MTV MTV-12-B/180-59b on the same 200hp Mooney would be informative. I assume at least someone on this thread has the -59b MT prop flying at this time.....

Thanks so much for the kind words! I think I am still getting inspiration from Dr. Brien Seeley's article published in a summer 1982 issue of Sport Aviation magazine on his highly modified 1966 E model. For determining performance, he always ran the airplane at the same conditions: 8000' altitude (to be perfectly comparable, one should run at constant density altitude, I am sure he took this measure of care but the article did not provide this level of detail), WOT, 2700 RPM, leaned for best power, one person on board, full fuel, ram air open and all air vents closed. I would suggest his configuration become the single standard data condition where we all measure before and after mods cruise at ~75% power. Dr. Seeley's before speed in this condition was 153 knots for a stock 1966 M20E. After a huge number of mods, including an annular one-off cowling and the world's first Lopresti-designed Mooney 3-door MLG gear system, his after speed was an incredible 186 knots! This is with a box-stock IO-360-A1B6 engine. This speed gain and the economy cruise he could get at near the old speed - 155 knots on 7 gph - was all done in 1980-1982. I have a PDF copy of this article on this amazing transformation, PM me if you want a copy. I don't think many folks know the huge influence the CAFE Foundation has had on GA airplanes and especially Mooneys. The Mooney three-door MLG design had its genesis on Dr Seeley's M20E. The inertially tuned exhaust system research, flight test and papers published by CAFE led to the design and marketing of Powerflow Exhausts. Lopresti Speed Merchants was borne from the ideas of CAFE and Mississipi State University's research on piston engine cooling drag, that's where the axisymmetric intake nostrils we see on a lot of airplanes came from. http://cafefoundation.org/v2/main_home.php http://www.raspet.msstate.edu/index.php

Jim, you are exactly right. The photos below show the new interior Royalite and vents. Plane Plastics of Alva, OK, provided all of the interior Royalite....during the mods we decided it was time for an all new interior and glass...the glass came from Great Lakes Aero Plastics, they are WAY cheaper than LP and are the subcontractor to Mooney for OEM glass (OK, plexiglas) AFAIK. We still have to install cloth speaker covers over the cabin speaker and Sonalert horns, and paint the Royalite....what's that you say? Never heard of painting Royalite? New Royalite can be painted and protected very nicely these days with SEM Color Coat plastic paints. SEM is amazing, the paint fuses to the Royalite, it won't flake off at all, and protects the plastic from UV. I see a lot of folks covering over their old Royalite with fabrics and spending more (and making it heavier) than simply replacing and painting it with SEM. All the info on SEM paints is here http://semaerospace.com/as/ the step-by-step approved instructions are here http://semaerospace.com/images/Users/1/aero/pdfs/Refinishing%20Plastic%20Process%20CCPA-102.revised.2.08.pdf and it can be purchased through Plane Plastics. BTW, we kept our old overhead ducts and the circular vents that go with them. Can provide pix in three weeks (I am in Australia right now) if anyone needs replacements of the legacy system. They are in "OK" shape, and could be fixed up/restored with SEM Sure-Coat if need be. It is left as an exercise to the reader to find the info on Sure-Coat....

Why thank you to everyone! I'll try to answer a few questions. The wing root fillets are from Lake Aero Styling and Repair, Mod 111. Their web site shows a half mph speed increase from this mod....but if you have TKS de-ice on the airplane you can't install them. Look cool, but I couldn't quantify any speed gain from the fillets in and of themselves. But they look cool. BTW LASAR has a Lopresti-cowled 78 J on sale on their site $79.9K. Replacing the pop-up vent with the later dorsal intake was very expensive. I bought as many parts as I could from salvage and picked up new plastic parts from Mooney. The parts manual is a great resource to show what is needed. I took a lot of pictures at the salvage yard before removing what I needed to document install details. The new upper fuselage skin was a totally lucky break, Lone Star had one that was made for another customer but never picked up. To get another one of those skins would require Mooney to pull their drop-hammer dies for that part out of storage and bang out a new one. Literally. The new overhead vents are very quiet, much less drag and puts out a lot of air right where you need it. The smooth belly and the wingtips are all factory new parts from Mooney and/or Lone Star. I did not use any parts from SWTA. Lone Star has a boatload of new-old-stock/surplus parts bought from Mooney when Mooney ceased production of the mid-body models. Parts Manager is Kevin Durkee, great folks there! The work was done by Antelope Valley General Aviation Services in Mojave, CA. Rob Loughlin is the principal there, he is one of those guys that can figure out an approvable way to do just about anything, and has worked on all kinds of planes you have never heard of, such as the National Test Pilot School's NDN Firecracker...he rebuilt a wing for that plane from scratch after having the factory wing jig shipped from England. Our empty weight is OK, sort of. I don't have the paperwork with me right now, we still have to remove the old Brittain AP stuff and we have a couple other weight reduction ideas which may or may not work. The smooth belly is actually kind of heavy. A vaccuum-bagged carbon piece would probably be half the weight. I "heard a rumor" that Dugosh had just such a mod. but.... The composite gear doors are interesting, I have heard them called "inner doors" or "middle doors", some Mooneys have 3-piece gear doors, the outer is on the gear leg, the middle is on the wheel, and the inner is hinged to the inside edge of the wheel well opening, and is actuated by yet another marvelous Mooney welded-tube-and-geegaw system. With the rotated caliper/composite door system we have, to fit inner doors would require all-new inner doors along with the geegaws....since the stock inner doors match the older large-bulge middle doors. Yeesh. Scott, good luck with the TN idea, next time I am in Wichita I'll look you up. What would really be cool would be to take the best ideas from Bill Sandman's M-20 turbos, and Tornado Alley Turbos and work up a new configuration. The TAT TN A36 Bonanzas are wicked fast, but there is a TN airplane out there that takes the Mooney approach to the next level....it's called an Aerostar 601P. Yep, got a 1977 one of those too, $135k last summer at the bottom of the market....but it needed "some work, XX AEMUs" as one would expect. Eastern Mooney Monetary Units = $100, Western MMUs are $1000, an Aerostar Monetary Unit is $10,000. Yowch.

Good eye on the antennas! We do not have a single external antenna forward of the baggage compartment. When we removed the nav antenna from the tail, the vertical fin skin underneath had been cut very raggedly, this was from the factory in 1977. It was cheaper just to replace the skin (and lighter, too). Same thing for the upper fuselage skin that is now in green primer, after removing the old vent system that was riveted to the upper fuselage (with button head rivets), the tilt-up vent intake and the "7" antenna, and wanting to get at the fixed shoulder harness installation that "must have" been done at the factory (even though no one, not even Dennis Bernhard at Lone Star, had ever seen a drawing or heard of this fixed install before, it placed the shoulder harness way too close to the neck), it was easier to replace the upper fuselage skin. Lone Star happened to have an NOS skin in stock, we got it for little more than the raw material cost. The wing tip hidden nav antennas work great. The hidden transponder antenna in the belly is not so good. We will probably have to mount it externally aft of the smooth belly skin....

Hehehehe, no, I don't think so!! That photo was cropped from a fairly wide shot, and the data (during a different phase of flight, not as wingman for photos!!) were taken as good as I know how to do in terms of aircraft trim at level flight. Again, our data are preliminary, and there will be more later. The trip from Mojave to Redding CA (not Palmdale, the site has a mistake on the destination) was gratifying, yes there was some tailwind but....http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N201JX/history/20100305/2010Z/KPMD/KMHV/tracklog Another picture for y'all, this shows the smooth bellly, Lopresti nose gear doors, Lone Star Aero (nee Modworks) composite main doors with LASAR rotated calipers, and the Powerflow Quietpipe. And yes, the tanks are leaking some, and yes, she needs paint bad.

Hi Chris...I am sorry, but the cowl has been sold. I will have another ad on Barnstormer's for the exhaust system soon. In the meantime, take a look at this! Finally flew last week after being down for a couple years! We did the Powerflow Gen 1 with Quietpipe and the Lopresti at the same time, so we won't be able to determine discrete perf gains attributable to either mod, but I can safely say in the aggregate we have gained at least 7 knots in TAS at 10000 ft, possibly more. The results are preliminary right now, we'll get better data later on, and we'll especially get more like-condition data to our baseline data on hand.. We are in Troutdale OR right now for tank seal work. Engine cooling and especially oil cooling is WAY better than before. Standard day full power climbs are possible with the cowl flaps closed with OTs in the 210F range. Before, this condition would result in a quick excursion to oil temp redline. Others have reported that the Powerflow is loud, or does not provide enough cabin heat. For us, the noise is the same with the Quietpipe and the heat seems just as good as before (which is terrific). Ram air is outstanding, we see a solid 1 inch gain at 10000', about 140 KIAS or so... All the gray/green primer parts in the photo hint at other drag reduction measures on this 1977 M20J. We went with factory wing tips with the hidden counterweights and the smooth belly....among other things. More later, we should be done with tank sealing around April 10.

For those looking for a used M20J cowl and airbox etc (basically everything removed from a J for the Lopresti cowl, including the nose gear doors) I have the lot on sale at Barnstormer's, it should come up under the "Single Engine - Mooney" subcategory. Thanks!

Very cool, hope the paint job turns out wonderfully! We have a highly modded 201 that needs paint too, would LOVE to see yours when you get it, you're at Tacoma Narrows? We are in the Arlington area. Off topic, picture of a TCM C-17 on the Antarctic ice on the front page of the Seattle paper today, looks awesome.

Bryan, very cool! Can't tell after re-reading the posts, did you wind up at ArtCraft or stick with Kracon for the painting.....

Prop is SOLD! Please see this thread in the vintage Mooney section for updates. Thanks everyone. BTW, we have not yet flown the Lopresti cowl/Hartzell BA (blended airfoil) 2 blade top prop and powerflow exhaust combo yet, should be interesting. Sure liked the BA prop on the legacy setup, though. What would REALLY be cool is to make these three STCs work with the IO-390 echelon STC.....

Sorry, Parker, I am not interested in removing and selling the cowl flaps separately. Selling you just the cowl flaps would make the remaining cowl virtually unsellable. The entire package that was removed for the Lopresti cowl mod is worth far more as a whole to someone who wants to upgrade a 200hp E or F to a 201-style front end. You may have better luck at a salvage yard, Dawson Aircraft in particular has a pretty nice searchable web site. If someone wants to make a decent offer for the cowl, spinner/backplate, intake airbox(less alternate air valve, that part is reused for the Lopresti upgrade), ram air valve and nose gear doors as a package just PM or email me! Thanks.

Prop SOLD! Cowl. spinner, intake airbox, ram air valve, exhaust and nose gear doors still available.

Here is the update with the numbers for the McCauley square-tip prop we have for sale, see the testwest gallery for the pictures! $1900 plus shipping, a great deal since salvage shops sell damaged props for this amount. It is a McCauley B2D34C212, serial number 768616. It was installed new on 01/21/1979 at 352.49 TTAF on our Mooney N210JX. It was overhauled on 08/31/1988. Total Time on this propeller is 2713.91 hours TSMOH on this propeller is 1159.1 hours. Although the prop was working perfectly when removed, it has been a fair bit of time since the last overhaul, 22 years. However, for part 91 ops, calendar time does not necessarily force a mandatory overhaul. Anyone interested, PM me, thanks!

Hi Philip Take a look at Top Gun Aviation's conversion of a 1969 F model with the 201 cowling, the web site is here: http://www.topgunaviation.net/topgunaviation/id9.html Also go up a level and look at the other pages on the site detailing the ongoing mods to their F, it is really nice. Here is their contact info: Mark Rouch mark at topgunaviation dot net and Tom Richardi menace at topgunaviation dot net Looked at your plane in the gallery, very classy. We also have the intake air box and a few other bits you would need that were removed for our Lopresti cowl. Thanks!