Greg Ellis

It has been reported within the last hour that they have reopened KELP and all flights will resume as normal.

FAA says El Paso airport is reopening and flights will resume normally

My 63 C model never had it.

@Scott Dennstaedt, PhD, thank you for everything you have done to help me learn about weather in aviation.  I appreciate all the hard work you have done to help out countless numbers of pilots fly safe.  I am so thankful for the two books that you have written as well as the Ezwxbrief app.  Enjoy your retirement.

Curious, I know he is a pilot and has his own airplane (A Piper Meridian I think).  Wonder if he wanted AOPA to pay for his travel expenses in his own airplane and they wouldn't do it.  If they wanted him in Maryland all the time, that would get expensive.

Not sure if this helps, but I subscribe to www.adlog.com 

They do the AD stuff for you and send it to you to put in the logs. $43/year for single engine.

3 hours ago, Schllc said:

There is no better product for this purpose than the bob fields inflatable seal. It is easy to install and works flawlessly. I will never install anything else on a Mooney. 
there is a thread here somewhere with pictures and install instruction. 

Other than how they get inflated, is there any difference in the performance between the economy model, deluxe model, or electric model?

I just love how these threads de-rail so quickly.  But it is impressive for me (I am not a computer geek at all) to read what you guys were doing years ago.  First foot in the door kind of stuff.

My earliest recognition of anything in programming was a mandatory programming class we had to take in high school.  So this would have been around 1986 and we used TRS-80's (The most I remember was reprogramming a game called TaiPan to make it easier to win).  Other than that I can't tell you anything about anything.  I am still of the school...if the computer doesn't do what you want it to do then shut it off and turn it back on again...hahahaha.

We need a computer nerd section on Mooneyspace.  I actually enjoy reading these computer history lessons.

59 minutes ago, Hank said:

It's a C, look at the chin. 

What's with the lifting strap wrapped around it and going over the roof joist?

And if you believe the decal, it does say Ranger on it in one of the photos.

27 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

By “turned it over”, I meant pulling the prop through by hand (carefully).  I think you knew that but just wanted to be sure.

Yes sir.  Thanks.

9 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Have you or your mechanic put a borescope into the cylinder through the spark plug hole, turned over the engine and watched the valves?  Maybe compare them to #4?

Have not done that.  I borescoped it yesterday just to see if there was any damage and everything looked okay.  but did not move it through to look at the movement of the valves.  Thanks for the advice.

7 hours ago, hazek said:

Have you considered to subscribe to Savvy’s analysis service? When I had a symptom last year they correctly analyzed my data and correctly diagnosed my problem. They’re very good at this. Might be worth the subscription.

I do subscribe and I have submitted the data for analysis.

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

There’s some way to test them i think?

I have an E5A harness tester from Aircraft Tool and Supply.  The leads to the #3 spark plugs tested good according to the tester.

16 minutes ago, 47U said:

Was hoping the new plug would help you out… during the airborne lean test, when did the #3 drop out compared to the other cylinders?

Has the #3 intake tube flange been inspected to make sure that it’s absolutely flat?  Did I read once upon a time that someone used two intake gaskets to ensure a good seal?  Can you make sure there’s no damage to the engine side of the intake tube where it enters the sump?

In your Savvy link, at 16:44 the #3 EGT drops… so that was the first cylinder to misfire during the lean test?

Curious what @N201MKTurbo and @PT20J thinks…

I am going to insepct the intake tubing, the flange, the gaskets, the rubber connector, etc…next weekend.  Just ran out of time this weekend to do much with it.  Thank you for the response.  I will continue to post what is found out as I work on it.

Here is a very short flight done today.  I changed out the spark plugs to no avail.  I don't want to fly the airplane for very long running this hot on the #3 cylinder.  I did an induction leak check according to Mike Busch at around the 17 minute mark.  As you can see the only cylinder running hot is the #3 cylinder.

https://apps.savvyaviation.com/flights/shared/flight/10328542/85e6027a-1330-4240-89d3-54b3c6395d9f

Just now, 47U said:

I’m curious what the results of the inflight cylinder lean test will be… you’ve already gone through the intake and exhaust for issues.  And the plug swapout.

Otherwise, something in the valve train?  Pushrods/lifters/cam lobes.  The fact that the problem followed after the cylinder change points to what has commonality between the old and new cylinders. 

The plug swap out will happen this weekend along with other things (flight test, etc).  I will report back my findings.

37 minutes ago, 47U said:

So, all three cylinders on the same lower end?  Narrow deck or wide deck?

My friends ‘68G wide deck ran hot, albeit chrome cylinders, but over the years he swapped out three of the four to steel and it was better, but still  ran hot.  He was challenged to keep it under 440-450 on climb.  My question is… do wide deck O-360s run hotter than narrow deck O-360s?

Same lower end.  Narrow deck.

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

C models with the doghouse run hot on takeoff. They run hot in cruise too. You can re-jet the carb for more fuel flow or you can send your carb to msacarbs and they can open up the main jet. 

I have the rich carb and run 19 gph on take off.  It is just the one cylinder and has repeated itself from the previous cylinder.  Both were new and both had this happen immediately and throughout break in.  The cylinder before these two ran just fine and ran relatively cool in the mid to upper 300's like my other 3 cylinders do.  I don't really think it is a dog house issue or a carb issue since I have three cylinders that run in the mid to upper 300's and barely kiss 400 in climb out in a hot Texas summer and one cylinder that runs 480 on climb out and 430 in cruise on a hot or frigid day. (one day flown last week in the upper 30's.  Frigid for Texas)

So, with the bayonet probe as I have mentioned the cylinder runs upwards to 480 on take off and drops down to 430 or so in cruise while the other three cylinders barely reach 400 if that on take off and run in the mid 300's in cruise.  When I had the ring probe on the #3 cylinder would run in the lower to mid 300's all the time, never getting close to 400 even with a new cylinder that was not broken in yet.  So the ring probe is not only registering lower than the other cylinders it is registering over 100 degrees lower than the bayonet probe in the same cylinder.

5 minutes ago, 47U said:

@Greg Ellis  since the EDM 900 is primary, what Andy says is good advice.  

Andy’s mention of the inter-cylinder baffles (make sure they’re installed on all the way back to the base of the cylinder) made me think of something else baffle related… the baffle tie rods, two under each bank of cylinders.  You can see the tie rod in the pic of a friends D/C model with the fire sleeve around the ring probe.  He didn’t think the fire sleeve made that much difference in the CHT reading.

I did my fire sleeve around both probe’s harnesses… and had better readings, I think.  The zip ties got brittle with the heat and I replaced them safety wire.  Still, even with fire sleeve, the ring probe is not as accurate as a screw-in probe, for sure.

Thanks for the photos.  The baffle tie rods are all attached.  Two on each side. I checked that last weekend.  The inter cylinder baffles are there as well.  I will check their actual positioning this weekend to verify they are correct.

12 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

The ring-type probe is not very accurate compared to the actual probe that goes into the hole on the cylinder head.  They generally read 40-50° lower than the other probes.  For safety, I definitely would not run your #3 cylinder with the ring type probe.  @47U mentioned the fire sleeve, I hadn’t heard about that and will have to try it on mine.

The “intercylinder baffles” that someone mentioned isn’t a part of the doghouse, it’s the small piece of sheet metal that extends between the underside of cylinders #1 and #3 (as well as between 2 and 4 on the other side of the engine).  Yours are probably there, but it would be worth a look to make sure it’s fitted properly.

There is an area behind and below cylinder #3 in the vicinity of the oil pressure adjustment that can be closed up a lot using some scrap sheet metal.  The doghouse is very lacking in that area.

Swapping spark plugs is quick and easy and would be my first priority.

As others have mentioned, about the only thing that could cause an excessively lean mixture on only one cylinder in our carbureted engines would be an induction air leak, but that would show as an extremely high EGT for #3.  Checking that would be my second priority, as well as checking as much of the rest of #3’s intake manifold while you’re at it.  Also checking valve lash, in case the pushrods got mixed up.

I didn’t know there was a way to check the mixture distribution in a carbureted engine, could you please post that?

Good luck, please keep us posted about what you find out.

Thank you for your post.  The intercylinder baffles are there.  I saw them with the S shaped hook coming up between the #1 and #3 cylinder hooking on the top holding them in place.

I will check the area you mention by the oil pressure adjustment to see if there is much of an opening there.  The mixture distribution was offered up by @N201MKTurbo.  Mentioned doing the GAMI test even though it is carbureted and not fuel injected to help see if the cylinder is running lean.  Mike Busch also has instructions on how to check if a cylinder is running lean by the manifold pressure so I am going to try that as well.

But first is to put in new spark plugs and see what happens.

Thanks again.

43 minutes ago, hammdo said:

Greg, do you have the factory dog house? If you want a fellow C-driver to observe while you fly, I can come by…

-Don

I replaced the doghouse quite some time ago with a new one made by Airforms Alaska which apparently is now owned by McFarlane.  They no longer make them for the C model and start at the J model.  It is still the doghouse but not the original.  I may have gotten the last one they made and then they stopped making them.  It was made quite well (powder coated and all) and has held up well.

Thank you for the observation offer and I will let you know.

14 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I hesitate to ask this for fear of sounding stupid, but you’ve changed plugs, right?  There’s nothing on the plugs in that cylinder that could cause pre ignition?  I have a hard time believing that you wouldn’t see it on runup, but? Im sure this was likely done and all, but it’s heating up so fast it just seems like detonation/pre ignition.

I have not changed the plugs yet but my mechanic said that I could try that and see what happens.  The plugs are the same from the first cylinder to this one and both had the issue.  So the I was going to change the plugs this weekend since it is something an owner can do and I can get it done before the mechanic is able to get the airplane in.  Thanks for the advice.

12 minutes ago, Fritz1 said:

Trace the ignition leads make sure both mags are wired correctly, the spark plug nuts say where they should go, but the markings may be wrong

I will check on this on the weekend.  Thank you.

21 minutes ago, 47U said:

Random thoughts…

The ‘63C has adjustable cowl flaps.  Check to make sure they’re opening to spec, and I wouldn’t be against adjusting them to be open another 1/2 or 3/4 inches.

The EDB 900 ring probe vs. bayonet probe… Since the 900 is primary, when you substituted the ring probe on #3 was it installed underneath the bayonet fitting that the factory CHT probe used?  My E.I. UBG (not primary) documentation says to wrap some fire sleeve around the ring probe installed underneath the bayonet fitting.  Otherwise the CHT reading for that cylinder will read low.  On mine, the fire sleeve raised the #3 CHT some 30-40 degrees and now #3 reads right inline with the other three cylinders using screw-in CHT probes.

Mags, ignition leads, and plugs were already mentioned…

What’s the takeoff fuel flow?  Fuel flow should affect all the cylinders CHT, but if it’s low and you improve it to 17-18 gph and it brings down all the cylinders CHT, that’d be an improvement for #3 (admittedly not explaining yet why #3 is CHT is higher that the others).

Powerflow exhaust?  

Target airspeed on climb?  Accelerating to 120 helps my CHTs stay just under 400 on a hot day.

The cold air intake to the muffler shroud is on the rear baffle aft of #3 cylinder.  Is that duct in good condition?  Muffler shroud fits tight?  Carb heat flapper closes tight (bearings not worn).  Excess air flow to the muffler shroud might siphon cooling air that otherwise would be available for #3 cooling fins.

What did the cam lobes look like when the cylinders were off?  I think the #3 exhaust valve doesn’t share a cam lobe, but the #3 intake valve doesn’t share the cam lobe with the #4 cylinder.  I’m not sure if there’s any relevancy there…. like I said, random thoughts.

Is it possible that there was a manufacturing issue with the #3.  Undersized bore, improper ring gaps… something else?  You’d have to pull the cylinder to find out, which would be pretty drastic… if you’re going that far into the weeds, swap #1 and #3 cylinders and see what happens.

 

Cowl flaps are the correct adjustment.  The ring probe was installed underneath the bayonet fitting so it would hold it in place.  There was fire sleeve around the wiring but I don't think right up to the ring itself.

Take off fuel flow is 19 gph (I installed the richer carb a long time ago). 

No Powerflow exhaust just stock exhaust which was rebuilt about 5 or 6 years ago.

Carb heat box was rebuilt 2 annuals ago.  All ducting looks in good shape.

Not sure about the Cam lobes when the cylinder was off.

If there was a manufacturing issue with the #3 cylinder then it would have been with 2 in a row because the cylinder before this one had the same issue that was possibly masked by the ring probe.

Thanks for all the ideas though.  It helps tremendously.

20 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Let’s do the test and if it shows a problem, then we will try to figure out what is wrong.

I will try to get out there this weekend and do the tests.  Thanks.