Ed de C.

Thanks guys! I'll get in touch with Mike. Both Clarence and SCHLLC independently suggested Mike previously, I should have started there. Much appreciated. Ed

Good afternoon folks - this is related to another thread I started earlier this afternoon about my Pre-Buy, but here I'll ask about flight instruction wisdom. I need to get trained into the Ovation sometime during the next few weeks. My background: 200 hours in a "J" 30 years ago. 300 hours complex time in my Lancair 360 20 years ago. Similar to Ovation speeds. 18 years of no flying until a year ago. Now have my IPC and about 30 hours in rented Diamond DA-40's with G1000/KAP 140. Recently got a high-performance endorsement in a Saratoga. 750 hours TT. Insurance only requires I get checked out in make/model by a qualified instructor prior to soloing in the Ovation. What's the "smart approach" here? I'll be looking to pick up the Ovation after the deal closes in Jamestown NY in roughly 3 weeks (but who knows). Nearest airline airport would be Buffalo (75-minute drive to Jamestown) and Jamestown is about a 5-hour drive from my house near Detroit. The logistics are a little tricky. The shop owner did not volunteer any names when I asked about local Mooney flight instruction. I like the idea of spending time with a Mooney expert instructor. How to do that in western NY? Especially when we don't know exactly when the import process will complete. Should I find a local instructor somewhere close in NY, get checked out in my plane, then take the plane to a Mooney expert for finishing school? Maybe I try to find a Mooney expert with a plane, and I travel to him/her for work before I pick up my plane? I'm in the Detroit Michigan area and am willing to take an airline to train with someone (I don't know anyone local to me.) I'm sure I'm not the first guy to wrestle with this. Ed

Indeed, this is a Maintained-by-Clarence aircraft. (He might want to trademark that.) Having spent a couple of hours with Clarence at his shop the day before the ferry flight, and seeing the travel boards attached to another Mooney, I've no doubt this is a clean airplane. Based on what a couple of you have already indicated, I'll attribute the speed discrepancy to an optimistic test protocol at Mooney. I must say, what a fantastic airplane! Even flying right seat on the ferry flight, that was a lot of fun. That engine pushes all the right buttons.

Thanks Niko182 - Here's the chart.

Good afternoon folks - I recently put a deposit down on a 2008 Ovation 3 and yesterday rode along on the ferry flight from Oshawa Ontario to Chautauqua NY where the pre-buy and import process will occur. This is my first aircraft purchase and as luck would have it, the plane that checked all my boxes is an import project. I've got a purchase agreement that spells out who will do what for import, and following advice elsewhere, both the Canadian broker and the NY shop have import experience and will arrange most of the details. During the ferry flight yesterday, I ran the Savvy flight tests for GAMI lean spread and in-flight mag check. Both seemed straightforward and the data is filed for analysis. The autopilot flew a coupled RNAV LPV approach without problem. All other G1000 and aircraft systems seemed to operate without problem and the ferry pilot agreed that the plane handled normally (he has extensive experience flying Mooneys. Examining the data logs this morning for yesterday's flight and several prior flights, I'm finding the TAS seems to be consistently 7 to 10 knots slow compared to the POH. Is this within the range of "normal" in your experience? Here are some related points about the airplane: It has TKS installed from the factory. I know the TKS drag costs us something, but do you think this much? The plane is dirty - plenty of oil/grease on the belly - it needs a good washing and detailing. The damage history includes a taxi prop strike a year ago (owner hit a taxi sign when the seat slipped backwards, and he could not reach the pedals). Prop was replaced and engine overhauled along with cowl repairs. There was a minor tail strike recently, the damage appears limited to the tail skid and a piece of sheet metal the tail skid attaches to. The damage is hard to discern (not obvious). I'm referencing the POH for the Ovation 2 GX I found online which lists the Hartzell 3-blade prop (PHC-J3YF-1RF) and 280 hp. This Ovation 3 has the Hartzell 3-blade prop (same part number) and 310 hp. Flight logs I examined occurred at altitudes ranging from 3,500 to 9,000 feet at 55% - 65% power. I noticed that the flaps in retracted position are not tight to the upper trailing edge of the wing so that air can flow from the underside through the gap. This plane does not have flap gap seals. Another Ovation 2 I looked at recently exhibited a tight fit between the flap and the wing upper trailing edge so that no air (or very little) would leak through. This makes me wonder if gap seals would be worthwhile in my case or if a flap adjustment is called for. I've noted my speed observation for Savvy (and the shop). Since the pre-buy will start on Monday and be followed by an annual inspection and DAR signoff of the airworthiness certificate, now's a good time for me to set my speed expectations and/or coach the shop to investigate. Ed

Update: I'm zeroing in on Ovation 3's. They have the GFC-700 I'm looking for and many have SVT, Stormscope, Traffic and XM weather. And TKS. With the 310 hp upgrade (I think standard on 3's), I'm estimating it gets climb performance at altitude of around 2,000 feet better than book (for the 02). (if you are at 18k, you'll get climb performance matching what the book says for 16k). Can any of you owners with this setup verify that? That would make it a viable high-teens or 20k cruiser. I looked at one last week with TKS (factory installed). I can understand why we lose speed with this setup, since the trailing edges of the TKS panels are not fared in with the wing (you feel a noticeable step that should have some aerodynamic effect.) A Cirrus I encountered in a shop had more attention paid to this area. I felt a little disappointed with the quality of the TKS panel installation on the O3, but I'm new to this. Unfortunately, I did not take closeup pics to share. Do you Ovation guys figure TKS costs us 5 knots at cruise? Best, Ed

Thanks M20F - I believe I've arrived at that point. I'll keep you all posted on where this lands.

Good evening guys - I'm back as promised to make a purchase this summer. As a refresher, I was looking at $300k and a plane to deal with flying in Michigan and the east coast. Here's where my head is at now: Can stretch up to almost $400k. TKS is a "must have." An Engine analyzer is a must have (can install later at an assumed cost of $10k?) Engine heater is a must have (can install later at an assumed cost of $3k) Garmin AP would be highly desirable (the Flight director capability and the FLC feature) Short panel would be desirable, to avoid the "pill-box" feeling. (I need to try both, since it's been a long time since my M20J time and zero time in a tall panel Mooney.) If an Ovation, then the 310hp STC would be desirable (assume cost to do this is $15k?) WAAS is desirable (sounds like this is $35k on top of a G1000). Stormscope is desirable (assuming this is $10k add to a G1000?). Flight director is desirable. (Will come with the AP such as GFC-700, or KFC225, but not the STEC-55x) I am agnostic on turbo v. non-turbo (meaning Ovation v. Bravo). The pros and cons appear to be a wash for me: Bravo will have higher maintenance and fuel burn, but gives me more altitude flexibility, maybe less acquisition cost. The Ovation engine replacement costs (I'm told all-in factory reman is max $65k) appear to be substantially less than the turbo Lycoming. At the moment, Acclaim appears beyond my reach. I am also agnostic on whether the plane comes with G1000 or steam gages with good navigators. The ideal airplane may be the Ovation 3 (with TKS, WAAS, StormScope). Maybe a similarly equipped Bravo or 252 or pre-3 Ovation. I bring this to your attention in case anyone is toying with the idea of selling. I am also interested in whether I have the upgrade costs about right, since I probably won't find the perfect airplane initially. Also, the wisdom of this community is invaluable. I'm talking to my accountant about the pros and cons of an LLC for the plane. Planned usage is 1/3 personal, 1/3 charity, 1/3 business. 150 hours/yr total. Insurance quote is $5k/yr for an Ovation with my profile. $1 million with $100k sublimits. Seems $1M smooth is not available thru AOPA for me. (750 hours TT, 200 hours in M20J, 260 in Lancair retractable, 40 hrs last 12 months, no claims/violations). If anyone knows of a Mooney CFI (and plane rental option) in Southeast Michigan (or nearby), I'd be interested as I need to get checked out. Best, Ed

Guys - Your comments have been great for helping me sort out options and priorities. Focusing in on the Short Body v. Long Body attribute, where exactly is the extra space in the Long Body? I think it's an extra 10-inch plug aft of the rear seats, but please correct me. In other words, in terms of the space for the 4 humans, there is no difference between the two. Or, did they move the rear seats back and provide more legroom for the rear passengers in the LB?

Ah, I missed that in the thread. If RPM rises on the takeoff roll, then that certainly suggests low engine power (or the prop was adjusted, which I think is ruled out.) Back to the engine: Fuel, Air, Spark for each cylinder. What the instruments say is happening, and what is actually happening. I think you confirmed MP and FF (at least according to the instruments you and the shop have). Are the mags, wires, and plugs confirmed OK? If you adjust the mixture during the high power runup does anything interesting happen? I recall that on cranking one magneto's timing is retarded for easier start. Any chance that retard is stuck? Timing check should have eliminated that possibility. As N231BN said, you want to escalate this to higher powers. You've done a lot. Someone's going to have the answer for you.

Here's what comes to my mind based on my experimental experience with a governor problem. I'm not familiar with the turbo engine setup in Mooneys (only what I had in my Lancair and even that was a long time ago) so let's have to Pro's check my thinking. I'm pretty sure (but not certain) that the governor has two RPM limits: one set internally by the governor shop (2,800 rpm I think you said) and the second being the external set screw adjusted to suit your installation). If I'm wrong about that, some of my narrative below is wrong. Sorry for the length of this, but if just one sentence helps you, it'll have been worth it. 25 years ago when I was preparing my Lancair 360 for its first flight (Lycoming IO-360 with a governor that I purchased from Lancair) I goofed up the governor installation. For some reason I cannot remember I had removed the cable attachment arm from the splined shaft and put it back on a couple of splines off. That would have changed the relationship between the governor's internal workings and the stop screw. The test pilot did not like how the static runup RPM was only 2450 when 2700 was the MT 3-blade propellor's limit. We adjusted the governor (set screw I believe) to get to something like 2650 on the ground. When he took off on that first exciting flight, the prop over sped to 3,000 (he thought) before he caught it and dialed it back. When I called Lancair they confirmed that the original 2450 static RPM was about right for the 3-blade MT prop (the 2-blade Hartzell would static run higher). That engine and prop combo was a case where the prop would not lift off the fine pitch stops until well into the takeoff roll. You know your propellor/governor was working properly 6 months ago, so my story doesn't help, perhaps other to observe there may be another "degree of freedom" here which is the cable arm to shaft orientation. What I can't figure out is once you effectively moved the stop screw out of the way, why you aren't getting more RPM. I'm suspicious of the governor shop's inspection confirmation, but you said the low rpm problem started before the governor shop got their hands on it. (You also mentioned the governor was overhauled not that long ago.) If your RPM is not increasing as you accelerate on the runway, then the prop must be off the fine pitch stop and the governor is controlling your rpm but at too low a level. It sounds like your prop operates off the fine pitch stop normally since you used to see 2,700 at the start of your takeoff roll. Another way to think of it: during the runup, as you advance the throttle and as the MP rises, RPM should rise obviously. Which one stops rising first should tell us a lot. If your A/P is right then MP will stop rising first, indicating the engine isn't developing enough power to lift the prop off the fine pitch stops. If the RPM stops rising first, then the governor is doing its job controlling RPM but at too low a level. Then, with full throttle, and the prop control full forward, slowly pull the prop control back and note what happens. Based on your stop screw being backed all the way out, I would expect you have some dead travel on the prop control before the RPM begins to drop below 2550. This confirms your max RPM is being controlled internal to the governor, not by the stop screw and suggests the governor is set too low. Make sure you can control the prop down to a reasonably low RPM. This should convince your A/P that a test flight is or is not necessary. Someone else alerted to the need to make sure the prop control cable is adjusted so that the governor stop screw is the stop, not the control cable itself. It seems you've confirmed that already. You said at one point that max RPM was moving around. That's curious and could have been related to the control cable. The broken control cable end is also curious, although you've now fixed that. The solution to the MP problem ended up being fixing the crushed airbox tube. Our diagnostic instincts went to fuel and intake leaks, we didn't think of intake restrictions. Had we known about the airbox work, we might have asked. I bring this up because I wonder similarly about the RPM issue. It was working before the annual, and then it wasn't. I would catalog everything that the shop did (like the airbox work) that could conceivably have affected the governor, propeller, control cable, and anything else related to RPM. We probably are missing a piece of information, it's not that our powers of deduction, logic or engineering have deserted us. Unfortunately, the loss of your original A/P is a setback. Since it feels like we've run out of ideas, you need to do something different at this point. I see 3 options for you: 1. Do what your shop suggests, and test fly the plane. At the end of the runway and at full power, confirm the prop control is controlling the RPM by pulling it back a little. If you see a max of 2,550 pull it back to 2,400. You have plenty of power. Inquire about governor failures and what will happen if it breaks so that you are ready. Once in the air, advance the RPM carefully to see if you have control up to 2,700 rpm. If you don't and it stops at 2550 then you and the shop know the problem is not solved. If it does control up to 2,700 then you may conclude the governor is OK and it's something else that changed from when your plane went into annual. If he'll do it, take the A/P up with you for a second set of eyes and brains. 2. Don't fly the plane and replace the governor (or call the governor shop, describe the problem and see what they say to do). Maybe the prior overhaul had something to do with your trouble (but it doesn't seem likely). 3. Get a second opinion about the whole situation and then probably take the plane to a different shop. I wonder what the Savvy guys would say about the RPM problem. Another troubleshooting challenge I had on the Lancair that might be useful: Early in its life, I was descending from altitude well into the yellow arc. The winter air was smooth and clear. Suddenly, there was a loud and low tone coupled with a slight vibration. Instinctive reaction kicks in almost before the adrenaline starts to flow. I chopped the throttle and eased the stick back to arrest the descent and reduce airspeed. After a few seconds the tone stopped. Flutter was my main concern and was a popular discussion topic in Lancair forums. The stick had been smooth the entire time (the vibration was not coming through the controls) and obviously no surfaces had departed the aircraft, so I began to doubt flutter and think towards something else. It took a year to find it. I quickly suspected a flimsy panel was hitting some sort of resonance. I could duplicate the tone at high speed (I had convinced myself I wasn't being reckless) and determined it was purely airspeed related, not RPM or throttle related. A big moment came when I cracked the emergency gear extension valve (the gear is actuated by hydraulic powered by an electric pump, so you pull the breaker and open the manual valve to let the gear fall free). I cracked the valve just enough to change the pressure of the gear doors being held against the wing and fuselage. The tone went away. I was then certain that one of the gear doors (there were 5, two attached the main gear, 3 actuated by their own hydraulic cylinders) was the culprit. But which one? Here's where I wasted a lot of time. I started hacking up gear doors that didn't seem to fit well, thinking aerodynamic interaction must be it. Nothing worked. The nose gear door had a particularly bad fit, so I removed it entirely, no luck. I changed preloads all around and found this affected the airspeed at which the tone appeared, but not in a way I could make sense of. I taped things in front of the doors to change airflow. Finally, I put down the tools and decided I needed to confirm which door was vibrating. I realized I could remove the interior and see into the main wheel wells from the cockpit. And I could put my hand on the hydraulic cylinders attached to the inboard gear doors. Sure enough, when the tone started, the right-side inboard door was singing away, and the attached cylinder vibration confirmed it. Now, how to fix it. I looked at that door and it's attaching piano hinge and kicked myself. The hinge was loose. When attached to the actuating cylinder, the looseness wasn't obvious, but when disconnected, it was. It was also too short (not enough wheelbase compared to the left side). I replaced the hinge, and the tone never came back, at least as far into the yellow arc as I was willing to go. Thinking back at the time, the high-speed descent (possibly the first time I had flown that fast) placed a lot of load on the gear doors under the wing. The hinge wasn't up to it. In hindsight, it all made sense. But until the end, I was working with not enough information to isolate the problem down to the offending component. I think the moral of this story is never give up in the troubleshooting process. The culprit is just hiding, maybe in plain sight.

Guys – this is great. You’ve helped me narrow this down a bit. I’ll put out this hypothesis: My “Forever airplane” (at least while I’m alive) should be a turbo and try to find one with TKS. The panel is more flexible with thoughts in several directions. The baseline target might be an Encore (97-98) Pros: Altitude flexibility, reasonable speed (don’t need more), fairly modern interior, I have 6 – 9 months of find one Cons: Can I find one with TKS or similar? What will the panel look like. Alternatives: M20M Bravo Pros: more likely to find one with FIKI and avionics Cons: Will that Lycoming run LOP? On the other hand, is that a big deal? Alternative: M20 TN (Acclaim) Pros: more likely to find one with FIKI and avionics, the latest in capability Cons: simply price. If I start with the Encore, what would the argument be for a Bravo or Acclaim, other than availability, which might be actually key? My local FBO seems to be Savvy approved and able to do Mooney work. Best, Ed

Good evening, folks – I’m just back from an 18-year hiatus raising kids. Looking for the right M20 model to focus in on for purchase this summer. I’ve spent a few hours searching through these threads but accept my apologies if I’ve duplicated an existing thread. It's certainly an outstanding group here. A short note on my background and mission: I’m 59, instrument rated, with about 800 hours TT, 200 hours in a 1982 M20J 30 years ago (I liked the plane and flying experience) and built/flew a Lancair 360 putting 300 hours on it (complex time), selling it 18 years ago when the kids came along. I just got my VFR currency back and am now renting 2004 DA-40s with G1000 and working to get my head around that much glass. Instrument currency is next up. Kids are in high school/college, the 529’s are funded, and the wife is game (since she remembers the Lancair when we were dating and newly married). I’m based in southeast Michigan (KPTK is likely to be my homebase). My annual mission profile at the moment would be 5 trips to Philadelphia (400 NM), 5 trips to Richmond IN (150 NM), 2 trips to Destin FL (800 NM ish) and the rest local sightseeing for passengers and getaways with the wife of unknown distances. I don’t see flying west of the Mississippi. I’m recently retired, so those wife-getaways could get creative to all sorts of places. The Philly and Richmond trips are related to part time work and charity and so I’d like to have dispatch and weather reliability. 60% of the time it will be only me in the plane, 30% of the time it will be 2 of us. 9% of the time it would be 3 and once in a long while it might be 4 (taking the kids up). In my years of flying, I’ve never flown with 4. I’m 5’ 10”, 180 lbs and my wife and family are proportional to that. Health/fitness is good with no known squawks or deferred maintenance. (I bring this up for the long-body v. short body options). I figure I have 20 - 25 good flying years ahead. Baggage requirements would be no more than what I’d carry on the airlines. My budget is up to $300k for the purchase. I figure 100 hours/year of flying and my spreadsheet suggests an annual outlay of $18k for fixed costs (hangar, insurance, annuals, repairs, subscriptions, etc) and $12k for the fuel, engine and paint/interior reserves. I can stretch north of $300k if it’s compelling. Having said that, I value a dollar, what I don’t spend on the plane can go to nicer hotels and gifts for kids. The models that have my attention are: M20K (252/Encore) M20J (201/Allegro) M20M (Bravo) M20R (Ovation) M20TN (Acclaim) A few other thoughts: I like comfort, meaning a smooth-running engine (as an automotive engineer I know the 6 should run smoother than the 4 in a J), nice looking interior, comfortable seats. I fly with A20’s so I don’t expect noise to be an issue. Being in Michigan, ice is an ever-present problem November thru April. My one tough experience with it was over Lake Erie in the M20J at night. It was the loss of 20 KTAS that alerted me to the problem. Happy ending, but I figure TKS would be a nice way out. The Lancair was without ice protection of course and frankly I flew it 3 years here in Michigan without ever having to cancel. But it could easily get me to FL190 and over lots of ice weather. I’m fine with oxygen (the cannulas) and used it well in the Lancair. Wife was fine with it too. Masks would likely be a different story. I like speed (the Lancair would cruise at 195 KTAS at 10k, cruise climb at 140, and that was with a Lyc IO-360) but as I get older, I don’t think I need to be the fastest. M20J speeds would probably be acceptable (well, probably), but I’d like to be up there knowing I’ve got the equipment and flexibility to handle most of what might come my way. I found the discussion about buying a non-g1000 plane so that I can easily upgrade it to be compelling. I admit to being attracted to glass and the Garmin autopilot and a Stormscope. So, an idea to frame my question of which model to focus on: Since I’m a flatlander, should I get an Ovation and consider TKS to be the icing solution (along with avoidance of course) or should I go with turbocharging for best weather capability (and maybe skip the TKS)? A lot of you certainly won’t go back (from turbocharging). If a turbo model, I see a lot of argument for the Bravo. But are there pro’s for the 252 or the Acclaim, given what I’ve described above? I’ve only flown behind Lycoming 4-cylinders. Am I missing out on the Continental experience or is it really 6 one, half dozen the other? Thanks in advance for your guidance and don’t hesitate to challenge my assumptions and ask for more info.

Hey Folks - I'm new to this site and love what I see here. After an 18-year hiatus, I've just gotten my VFR currency back and next is IFR recurrency. I have 200 hours in an M20J (about 30 years ago) and built/flew a Lancair 360 (about 300 hours of complex time). I'm renting DA-40s right now but am looking for something to purchase (I'll check out other threads here before I post that question). Like DCarlton, I'm (recently) retired. But, DCarlton hits on a major point that hints at part of the answer RoundTwo originally posed: how to finance the purchase. My spreadsheets indicate the same thing DCarlton points out about ordinary income taxes related to selling tax-deferred investments. A way to reduce that hit is to finance it so that the withdrawal from the tax deferred account is spread over many years thereby potentially keeping you in a lower tax bracket. On the other hand, if your future income is higher (because you are funding the bank payments with pre-tax withdrawals), then some things may be more expensive for you (like Medicare premiums and certain deduction phase-outs). You could avoid the question by paying for the plane acquisition using cash or post-tax investments (capital gains may be a factor), but then you forgo the future gains of the money you just shelled out. Like probably many of you (older ones at least), we have too much money in pre-tax retirement accounts because Roth's haven't been around very long (depending on employer) and we've been heavy savers from early in our careers. So that much cash or post-retirement savings is hard to come by. There's a lot of wisdom on this thread already (pay cash, you can't take it with you, Uncle Sam will get his cut somehow) Over the years I set up a personal home finance spreadsheet so that I can weigh all these plus's and minus's of different financing approaches. If you've got the Excel skill and interest, I'd highly recommend you do the same. If not (and that's most of us that aren't engineers or finance guys) then talk to your financial guy.