redbaron1982

yes

The point is that so far, the shop is saying that they did a descent prebuy, and this was something not be caught in a prebuy.

They said that it was really hard to see, because they had to look "back and down". I don't agree, for me a 360 inspection in each panel would be standard. I could accept to using a boroscope to get into corners that are not visible (if there is any) but this you can tell that was just catch in the annual by taking a picture with a cell phone. Honestly, regarding the other point of the impact on the resale price, I don't care "much". I'm not planning to sell it anytime soon, and I'd expect any potential owner to understand that it was correctly fixed and, as a learning experience, the airplane was extensively inspected every year, and treated against corrotion (that's what I plan to do anyway, for my own safety). I'm not saying this is going to be my first and only airplane, but hey, except things go *extremely* well on my professional life I'm not going get a Ovation or Acclaim anytime soon. For all what I've read, M20J is almost as best as you can get in terms of bang for you buck! Maybe a M20F is better in that sense (I understand almost same performance with considerable less price).

BTW: I've shared this information with Soutwest Aviation to see what hey have to say. The current MSC said that if they don't feel comfortable doing the repair suggested by Mooney, or if I don't feel comfortable with them doing it, they would help me getting a ferry permit to fly it to another shop.

Here the pictures of the corrossion... main take away for me? It was easily visible from an inspection panel... hard to miss. It does look like exfolliation/intergranular, which is bad, but the extension is not great, and after cleaning doesn't look like much material was lost...

I don't see a huge issue with aircraft owners having to get really involved in the maintenance of an aircraft, on the contrary, it should result in better safety. A pilot who knows the ins and outs of his aircraft should (in theory) be more prepare to handle unplanned situations in flight. I used to be a yachtmaster several years ago, and maintenance on sailboats (although much easier) is also a owners task most of the time. I don't see GA growing so much to be mass market, as it might have been expected in the 70s. Generation after generation the technical knowledge of the average people has been declining, and I don't buy that flying an aircraft is like driving a car. Anyone can drive a car but I'm sure most people cannot (safely) fly an airplane. And is not a matter of ability, but a matter of interest. Most people who drives a car, they don't care about the car or it's mechanics, or why it's important the camber, toe and caster of the wheels. They just don't need that knowledge to drive a car. But you do need that kind of knowledge to fly (safely) an airplane. Haven't said that, I do agree with the comments that the lack of expertise in many shops, even "official" shops, does not help in getting more people involved into aviation. My case in particular, if the worst scenario comes true, and the aircraft need a major repair that does not make sense to perform relative to the total value of the aircraft, I'm most likely never going to buy an airplane again. And most likely it will result in me leaving aviation altogether (I don't trust rental aircraft to do long XC flights, and they are mostly C172 or PA28 that are almost as slow as a car!). And if this happens, would be, in part, due to a MSC that was not profficient in Mooneys.

Yeah, that's correct. In case of Texas, you have 6.25% sales tax, which you are exempt if the transaction is done between "occasional" salers, meaning, people who do not do this for a living. In order to go down this road, the seller needs to sign a paper declaring that he is not in the buisness of selling airplanes. This has been already resolved, and now I have the paper to present in the state of Texas for the exemption, so I don't have to pay the 6.25% tax here. Maybe this will help cover some of the corrosion repairs!

I don't want to hijack this topic, you can follow the outcome on the other topic, so far it's an ongoing matter.

Sorry I didn't replied to this. I did get the message and the contract says any airworthiness issues found at the prebuy. So I think is on my side to handle this now. The previous owner used to fly the airplane daily, so I'm quite sure he was not aware of this either. The next thing to do is to get the pictures so I can share them with another MSC, probably Southwest Aviation, to see their opinion. And also getting the response from Mooney on this. With that then I will decide which is the best course of action.

I would reccomend a knowledgable broker, just so you can learn from my experience/mistake, you can take a look here: I've just bought an aircraft, that seemed to be in great shape (the previous owner flew it regularly, 2 per day for commuting) and 20 days after closing I get the report of the annual where the found corrosion on a wing spar cap. I know for sure the previous owner did not know anything about this condition (otherwise, he wouldn't have flown it 2 per day risking his life) and I made the mistake of assuming that MSC would do a descent job without explaining them what to do. That was my mistake. They didn't look for corrosion during the prebuy.

I don't want to continue looking into the past, but reading to this article, some take aways: 1) "First, the pre-buy examination* must be done by a shop or mechanic with extensive expertise with the specifi c aircraft make and model involved. Since the mechanic will have only a limited amount of time to examine the aircraft, it’s essential that he know exactly where to look for problems—i.e., what this model’s most common and serious problems are." "Ideally, the pre-buy should be done at a factory-authorized service center or type-specifi c specialty shop." I chose a MSC, officially published in mooney.com. I think I did the right call here. 2) "Second, the shop or mechanic chosen to perform the pre-buy must have no prior history maintaining the aircraft and no prior relationship with the seller or (if applicable) the seller’s broker" Again, the MSC I selected had no previous history with the airplane, the broker or the seller. 3) "Third, the pre-buy needs to be done within a reasonable distance of where the aircraft is located." It was a 40 minutes fly from the home airport of the aircraft. 4) "Once the pre-buy shop has been chosen, the next order of business is providing specifi c guidance to the mechanic on the desired scope and detail of the examination" This one I didn't do. 5) "While there are a lot of variables, we generally figure a pre-buy examination should require roughly:" "Eight hours of labor for a retractable or advancedtechnology normally aspirated piston single like a Bonanza or Cirrus" I paid for 17 hours, more than twice the 8 hours suggested in this article. 6) Takeaways, apart froom the ones mentioned above: "The pre-buy and any ferrying expenses should be paid for solely by the buyer. Never agree to have the buyer and seller split the costs of the pre-buy, because in that case the seller will want to control the location and scope of the pre-buy" "Never structure a pre-buy as an “inspection”—particularly not as an “annual inspection.” "Once you’ve bought the aircraft, it sometimes makes sense to convert the pre-buy into an annual inspection." I've done all of that. So again, having read that article, would have changed much what I've done. Ok, I give it that I may have listed to the shop the list of things I wanted them to take care of (actually I did that, but where basic things that I looked my self when I went to see the airplane). Or maybe I'd have asked for a detailed list of activities to be performed, and if something big was missing, I may have asked them to include it. The document says "A prebuy should be target to find showstoppers", I paid a official MSC 17 hours of labor, I would have expected them to do that. I know, people don't do what they are supposed to do, it happens to me every day, my own team, my internal clients and suppliers, they don't do what they are supposed to do, many times. So I take that, I should have had everything on written, I should have treat the MSC as if they were doing the first pre buy of their life and were completely new in the buisness. The thing is, that I was the "new" here, trying to buy my first airplane.

I'm thinking how to handle this forward and what type of conversation I'm going to have with the MSC on Monday. The current situation is: The airplane has no prop, because on the pre purchase they detected a minor grease leak. They contact MT and the prop was under warranty so now the prop is in a shop for inspection/repair. The airplane has no muffler because it was showing signs of corrosion and a new muffler is on it's way. The airplane is technically until last they of February airworthy as per the last annual. I'm not sure if after this annual the airplane is still airworthy, I mean, they would have to enter in the log book that an inspection was done but not the result itself, because that would render the airplane not airworthy. Sounds shady. So, again, I'm still trying to figure out what type of conversation and what to request to the shop on Monday. And of course, first thing,.for them to share the pictures of what they found. Any suggestion on how to handle this is appreciated. I'm considering flying it to your recommended MSC but again, I'm not sure if the airplane is AW or not. Also, I'd be losing 4.5k for the annual/prebuy that were a complete waste of money.

I got a instructor to do the transition after a post here in MS. I'm planning on doing around 20 hours. We will see how it goes. Same for insurance, I got it from a post here in MS.

No, it is not. And the MSC that did the prebuy/annual is not the same that used the maintain the aircraft.

I don't know how many. It was 14 days between the report of the ppi and the annual, with the holidays in the middle. Something odd too is that the send the report of the annual by email, not mentioning anything special about the corrosion, other than the item in the report. And the email ended with "please your ok to proceed". Again, for me that's odd, why I would tell them that proceed fixing the compass light of I still don't know if the airplane will ever fly again.

I consider myself someone that get informed before doing something. But also I assume people do what they are supposed to do. For me a prebuy should inspect for major issues so to protect the buyer from getting burnt. Actually I don't care for a prebuy to tell me that fuel caps are not placard with the fuel quantity, how much it could be to fix that? I'd rather expect them to tell me anything major with the airframe, avionics or power plant. I get that one thing is to suppose and another thing is what's written. But let's assume another scenario, following your logic, you should become a surgeon before undergoing surgery so you can tell the surgeon all the things he should take care of so you don't die while the surgery.

Thanks y'all for the comments and suggestions, specially those looking forward! The pre-buy is already done and cannot be changed, eventually, in the future, I could be more specific on telling the "experts" how to inspect an aircraft! I hope to get the pictures from the MSC on Monday and I'll share them here and also send it to Don Maxwell or Southwest Texas. I'm based in Houston, now I'm regretting on not having had the annual here, where maybe the best MSC are located. Somewhere I read that there maintenance manual for M20J are of available to the regular public (for free), is that so? Is there anywhere where I can get those just to learn more about the aircraft? I have some mechanical knowledge, but on cars (I'm building a FFR Roadster), not much on aircrafts.

I haven't seen pictures yet, so far is my fear. What they say is not the spar itself but the lower cap on a stub spar. I understand that some of this parts can be replaced. Although I haven't been specific on what to include in the inspection, I wasn't cheap either. I'm paying 2k for the prebuy and 2k for completing the annual. That's only the inspection part, not including any repairs. I would expect certain quality if you take a aircraft to a official MSC. If corrosion is a major issue (and it is), why they haven't checked for that during the prebuy? Actually, as I said, I asked them to do a prebuy that would become the annual. So they said they were going to do the inspection part of the annual, and then completing the annual with the no inspection items. So why corrosion, being a major concern when buying and aircraft, and being an inspection item, was not checked during the prebuy? That's what I am going to discuss again with them as soon as I have more information on the severity of the corrosion.

4) yes and all the aw issues, and some optionals, where deducted from the price. The seller was very understanding. 7) As I mentioned, I didn't ask for anything specific. This is my first aircraft and I thought an ppi was a ppi. They charged me 17 hours for the pre buy, what I think should be enough to open the inspection panels and look for corrosion. But again, nothing in written here.

Yeah, I am not concerned about the compass light, not a big item. My only concern is the corrosion...

I'm from Texas and the seller is from New Hampshire, that's why the pre buy and annual were done there. NH has no sale tax and Texas has with the exemption of occasional sales, that requires a form filled by the seller declaring that he is not in the business of selling and is just an occasional sale. Regarding the pre buy, I told them from day zero that the pre buy would got into an annual if I close the deal. They quote me 17hs for the pre buy part and the 17hs to complete annual. They never asked me if I wanted them to check for corrosion and I never specified it. For me it was obvious that whey would look for corrosion. My mistake. Again, I was going to do both anyway so I was not trying to save money. The last annual was not done by this MSC. I chose this place first because it is an official MSC and second because it was not the regular shop that maintained the aircraft.

That's exactly my point, is there any chance of starting some legal actions agains the MSC? Does anyone had experience with a situation like this, where a prebuy turns out ok, and 10 days after, the same MSC, find corrosion (heavy, meaning intergranular) on an annual?

I get that, of course, but again, why do I pay for a prebuy inspection on a MSC for them not to realize that the compass light is not working or that there is corrosion on the airplane? I mean, isn't a prebuy a mechanism of not getting burnt when buying an aircraft?

I've purchased on 12/20 a Mooney M20J from a fellow member of this forum, up to the point of closing, everything went really smooth. I got a MSC near the home airport of the aircraft, they performed a pre buy that found nothing too big, and the, at that moment, owner, agree to reduce the price based on all the findings. After I closed, two things happened: I cannot get the onwer to sign the form required by the state of Texas to not pay sale taxes, as this was a ocassional sale. It's being already 15 days (I know, we have the holidays in the middle) but hey, response was super fast before closing, and now signing a paper is taking for ever. As the annual was expiring on February, I talked with the MSC so they would continue the prebuy inspection into an annual inspection, so I didn't have to grund the aircraft again one month after getting it. They completed the annual and the new report came with a new item: Lower cap on RH wing stub spar assembly inside inspection panel area directly behind RH gear wheel well has heavy intergranualar defoliation corrosion. Metal has flaked away. Need to evaluate and determine repair. Sent info/report to Mooney -- waiting for reply. Unable to estimate repairs at this time. Of course I already talked with the MSC and asked how come that they didn't find this on the prebuy, he said that is not something common for a prebuy inspection, but anyway, I don't like that answer. The same MSC that 20 days ago made a prebuy report without any indication of corrosion at all, now it came with this. There are other, minor items, that showed up in the annual and not the prebuy, such as the compass light not working. That's not a huge concern, but hey, again, how it comes that they haven't checked that the lights were working? Same with the light indicating that the speed break is deployed. I've asked for pictures of the corrosion (yesterday morning) and I'm still waiting on it. And still waiting to hear from the MSC when they get the response from Mooney. Again, I don't know if there is any advice, but I wanted to share this with someone as I'm quite stressed out by the situation of the owner not signing a paper worth 12kUSD in tax exemption, and now, 15 days after the purchase, finding that there is corrosion in the wing spar, that could end up on having to scrap the airplane.

I'm not very experienced in Mooneys nor as an aircraft owner but here my comments: * For me being the AC onwer an AP/IA is more a concern than a good point. He may have taken shortcuts or overlooked some points, knowing that at the end he was signing it off. I'm not saying that is the case, but is a probability. * Avionics wise it is not very nice. * As everyone said, it is not a 252. At most a 261, a 252 firewall forward conversion. Not the extra MTOW or the 24V electric system. * Not flying in 15 years? A huge no for me. * Engine is around 200 hours from OH, plus not flying in that much time, as was already mentioned, plan to OH in the next 200 hours. In all, I think you should budget north of 60k of expected maintenance expenses on the next year. The TTAF is low though. Do you know if it was kept hangared the whole time?