AerostarDriver

I guess my word of advice is if you do have black foam, maybe peel a little back at your next annual and take a look.

51 minutes ago, Gary0747 said:

Looks like residual adhesive?  Was the foam installed using self stick or additional adhesive?  If so perhaps the adhesive or surface prep is the culprit?   Also I thought the purpose of the original service bulletin was to stop corrosion of the steel tubes and the aluminum was not a corrosion problem. It sure appears to be chemical incompatibility with the aluminum.  Any way to trace it back to the manufacturer of the foam? Any number of things can create incompatibility. Blowing agents, fire proofing chemicals or the foam composition itself. 

The foam has no markings of any sort and was hand cut and installed. I cannot find a log book entry that shows when it was done but it is a self stick foam from what I can tell. The process for removing it is extremely labor intensive. The foam can be dissolved with Acetone but the adhesive can be peeled off with mineral spirts, nothing else seems to be able to remove the adhesive better, we tried the usual suspects, denatured alcohol, acetone, MEK and mineral spirts. I have to give a shoutout to Mrs. AerostarDriver who has now spent about 30 hours total peeling the old foam out, removing the adhesive and then using wax and grease remover to prep the non-corroded parts for the correct foam kit to be installed.  

Pictures posted.

5 hours ago, hammdo said:

Where’s google translate ;o)

-Don

From factory delivery in March of 1971 to 1993 in in Japanese, lets just say it is a lot to simply put in google translate. 

17 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Pics of the aluminum you are trying to stabilize Would be good...

We have many mechanics around here that can put an eye on the pics...

And give insight...

Some parts can appear to be structural... and not be...

Others look like they are part of a bench... and turn out to be structural...

Some corrosion is surface type... easily cleaned and properly painted...

 

As far as translating logs go... we know of one Mooney pilot in Japan... 

Pp thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

I will have pictures posted Thursday.

Help translating what I have would be excellent. Some I can read though the lines, other parts are a complete mystery.  

1 minute ago, carusoam said:

AD,

Is there a reason you didn’t take a pic to share what you are discussing?

We’re you able to find in your logs what the foam is that was installed?

For explanations of how water gets into so many places in an airplane...

Air carries water, temperature changes allow condensation to occur...

Condensation can occur on any surface in the plane... and run with gravity...

 

Post some pics if you have them...

Best regards,

-a-

I need to run back to the airport to grab my camera. I don't have pictures of the old foam installed but I have pictures of the damage. I still have the foam that was removed and can get a picture of it as well. The issue I have has more to do with the rapid degradation of the protective zinc chromate layer. You can see where the foam was because it has spiderwebbed the primer layer in the exact places where the foam was located.

As far as log books go, I have a few entries from the late 2000s which indicate SB M20-208B was complied with but beyond 1993 I can't make any determination as all the logbooks are in Japanese. If I where to guess it was likely installed in 2009 when a long list of other mods where installed by a new owner. That owner also had a pretty good A&P who had a separate entry for every non annual item. If that is the case, the foam would have only been installed for 10 years.

 

I am trying to install a GI-275 MFD with a GNS-480 already hooked up to dual G5s. Does anyone know if it is possible for the GI-275 to work by splitting the ARNIC 429 NAV and GPS Outs that are also going to the GAD 29B while not using the ARNIC 429 return? I just want to use the GI-275 as an MFD but Garmin cannot seem to provide an answer, in fact they told me that the GI-275 does not support the GNS-480 which their own website and the install manual do not reflect their claim.

4 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

The pitting is what I'd be concerned about.   Is the structural integrity compromised?  (aka strength of the tube)

I may have not been clear in my post, all corrosion is on the ALUMNIUM skins and baggage compartment bulkhead, behind the foam panels.

My SB 208 inspection was near prefect. The decision to replace the foam was due to the fact that some how I ended up with a 208B foam kit and finding out the foam was not the same we elected to "make it right". We would have never known about the corrosion on the ALUMNIUM if we did not remove the foam.

In rectifying some of the few deferred maintenance items on my 71 M20E, I elected to remove the foam that had been installed to replace the fiberglass as part of the guidance in SB208. However, the foam installed in my airplane was not the Mooney kit but rather a black/gray self stick foam. While, I had not though to grab pictures of the foam before I removed it, the foam looks extremely similar to the foam featured in Mark Gunnison's youtube video (I believe I have dropped it in with the correct time). Upon removing this foam I found that it has reacted with the existing green primer (Unknown if it is original), wherever the foam was attached the primer has cracked and flaked off creating some minor general surface corrosion with some deeper pockets of pitting on the aluminum surfaces. The panel worse effected where the baggage compartment bulkhead, which was peculiar to me as their is limited ways for water to find its way to that panel.

Working with my A&P we have a solution which evolves removing the effected primer, using scotchbrite to clean up and remove the corrosion and then etch prime all effected areas. Has anyone else experienced this? Has anyone ever looked behind the self stick foam? I already have the Mooney SB M20-208B foam kit but is their any reason to look at other options?

I know I am posting this without pictures but left my camera at the airport. Should have pictures by Thursday.

26 minutes ago, flyboy0681 said:

I had an OAT probe installed along with the GI-275 and had it mounted in the front, left air scoop (Garmin approves this). I wasn't so keen on the idea on using the scoop, but when I heard the estimate of pulling out part of the interior to feed wires into the wing, I relented. In the end I don't think it is obtrusive at all because it doesn't stick out beyond the fuselage.

Garmin makes mounting the OAT probe for the G5 a big deal in the latest revision of the STC. They claim for the mooney it must be installed in a zone 3 or zone 2A lighting protection area. This makes mounting closer then 2.07 meters from the prop impossible unless you where to stick it directly on the chin of the cowl. Garmin also claim that the OAT probe can not be mounted TO the airframe, only to an inspection panel, at least in the G5.

On 8/16/2019 at 5:50 PM, Steve W said:

I'd also settle for the G5 feeding OAT to the 430 feeding to the JPI.

Alternatively, if I had gotten an experimental I could have designed an interface so one OAT probe can feed multiple devices.

Well, I could, but after FAA approval no one would want to pay $10,000 for it.

 

 

I have been working on a device that emulates a Davtron C307PS (one probe in, 2,4,or 8 outputs) I have been testing it in two different experimental and I am trying to get a NORSEE approval. In all cases you would be required to have at minimum a two probes, one is required for when it is required by the TC but the second would go in to the hub and could be split out to any device that excepts a standard C307PS. Honestly, I think Garmin really screwed up by not doing this with the GAD-13.

Something I had never seen before until I pulled the registration history for my airplane was the Aerostar logo.

19 hours ago, 201Steve said:

It probably means nothing as far as experience on a Mooney. Just because the corporate entity has the emblem, doesn't mean the guy wrenching on it has any advanced experience. Even if at least one mechanic did, I don't think there is any assurance that the same guy is still part of the team. That said, it's a good START as to whether or not they are what you're looking for. The follow up is... you take the PIREPS around here.

Here's an interesting experience. DLK Aviation at KRYY Atlanta. They've been a MSC for years and years. They now specialize in Cirrus, but elect that there's no good reason to get rid of the Mooney emblem. I cannot speak to their working knowledge as of now for Mooney, but I do know that they actually recommend another MSC for various things -> Cole Aviation, MSC in Dalton GA.

I had a similar experience with Cole, they were recommending any major work to go to Don Maxwell.

21 hours ago, AKEllsworth said:

Glad I finally posted this request for help.  I'm loving the insight, and From what I can tell, most Mooney owners are usually very satisfied with the product.  Other options I have considered (hold your fire) are beechcraft sundowner an Piper arrow or  *cherokee 180* ( not comanchee). I keep coming back to the efficiency and value of the mooney. 

Having recently flown all of the above options in my recent search for an airplane I found the following

Beechcraft Sundowner/Sierra/Musketeer:
Very comfortable (wide cockpit, some times two doors), VERY SLOW, rubber donuts like a Mooney but a stabilator like a piper. I was getting ready to close on a Sierra when I was talked out of it by a former Beechcraft engineer.

Piper Arrow:

Honestly with the new AD out I would avoid like the plague until the dust settles, the counter argument is that this may correct the "arrow bubble", 90K 8000hr Arrow IIIs are puzzling me.

Cherokee 180:
Have you considered a bold warrior Bold-Warrior (bold-warrior.com)

I ended up with a Mooney M20E. I would argue is a C or E model Mooney the best value for your money assuming you want to stay with Lycoming 4 cylinder. 

As your doing prebuys familiarize yourself with SB M20-208, I pass on 3 different E models which still had fiberglass insulation and tubes were marginal at best.

For your budget you can absolutely get a lot of airplane, an F may be a bit of a stretch  but your solidly in range for a really good C or good E model. As a word of advice, start shopping for insurance and get a quote or two. Age, total time, time in retractable gear airplanes and having additional ratings are big drivers of cost. For example, a 250 hour pilot with an instrument rating vs a 250 hour pilot without an instrument rating can be up to a 1000 dollar difference in your annual premium.

My wife and I are now the proud owners of N9606V. I can backfill as to why I believe Mr. Paulie sold the airplane.

N9606V, 21-0012 was bought from the factory by a Mooney/Aerostar dealer called Kaigai Bussan Kaisha, Ltd in Tokyo. The aircraft was flown to Japan from Kerrville some time in the Q1 of 1971. In 1993, it was flown back and imported by a new owner in California who may or may not have skipped out on paying the ferry pilot. At the time it was brought back from Japan it was painted and a few mods where made to the airplane. Then it passed through a number of owners to the owner I bought it from. The previous owner bought it in annual and flew it until it was out of annual, he intended to do a 201 cowl and wind screen conversion on it but elected to just restore his v-tail. Upon conducting a prebuy, it was found to have major corrosion running the length of the stub spar, forward along the gear supporting rib, the airplane was ferried to Don Maxwell's shop where the whole wing was replaced with a serviceable wing. In Don Maxwell's words, it was the worst corrosion he has ever seen on a Mooney wing. You would think based on how bad the corrosion was in the wing that their would be some in the fuselage but after days of searching, we could find no evidence of such. 

06V still needs a lot of work to be perfect, but she was in need of a good annual and a "forever home". While the stinger gives the appearance of speed, it will not true out at 200 but on the way back from East Texas we did see 165 knots true with a ground speed of 192 knots. Currently, back down for a G5 install but hoping to be flying again soon.

48 minutes ago, Nukemzzz said:

A lot of my thoughts are triggered by pressing "play" on youtube while drinking my breakfast coffee...today was no different.  I was watching a video about Aspen E5 and it got me thinking... nobody on this thread recommended Aspen.  I see G5, I see 275's.   Is there something I should know about Aspen in case I see a good deal on a used PFD come along?

Had a grand total of 5 Aspens fail on me in flight, 1x E5, 2x First Gen Evo 1000, 1x Evo Max and 1x EVO Backup instrument paired with a G1000. I would not recommend.

I would kill for this in my E but it would make no since budget wise. A co-pilot side window is far more wallet friendly.

147 Kts true for a C with a 200hp engine seems low. Check rigging, my 71 E with a Top Prop trues out at 157 knots on a bad day. On a good day I can do 163.

Mods list:
Oil cooler relocation
Top Prop with 201 Spinner
Lasar Cowl Closure
Lasar Oil Cooler relocation

Circling back, as someone who has spent the last two years trying to buy and moving to purchase a Mooney. The reason their is so few on the market right now is because they are not sticking around on the market. Trying to get an airplane tied down long enough to get a prebuy done was impossible. I would call someone up, tell them I wanted to do a prebuy, they would say ok, I would get that ball rolling and they would call back a day or two later and say they had a cash offer for asking price and someone who was not willing to tie up the sale with a prebuy.

In the last two years (late 2018-early 2020) I was interested in 27 airplanes, attempted to do prebuys on 21 of them, finished prebuys on 3 of them to come to the one I ended up buying.

I have many harsh words on hangers, being in the ATL area, no one has hangers but lots of people have hangers filled with non-airplane items. It is infuriating to visit an airport and see an alarming number of the hangers being used as motorcycle storage or rv storage. The local airport managers/airport authorities have no desire it seems to resolve this problem while telling me their is wait lists that will take decades to get through. The last airport I called to be put on a wait list said that I was entry 1028 in the list. I asked if they had ever called someone from the list and they said, a hanger has never been available. 

2 minutes ago, 67 m20F chump said:

If you do owner assist mx I would like to give you some help the next time you take off the cowl.  I want to take pictures of the firewall.  I’m in south Fayette county so it would be easy for me to get over to you.

Just now, 67 m20F chump said:

Is your cowl flap handle from a J or can you use the old cable and knob?

Can't tell if your talking to me or @rbridges

I am not that far along. But in the cockpit everything stays the same for the cowl flaps. I have not yet installed the J baffling yet so it is currently outside the airplane.   

8 minutes ago, 67 m20F chump said:

I have the M20J cowl.  I want to get a list of what the rest of the parts are.  I think over time I should be able to get the factory parts off wrecked J’s.  
 

Sabermech’s cowl looks great and I would be interested.  I don’t have details on it.  He has other business interests and who knows when it will be available.  The M20J swap was a stc so my thought is it may be easier to get one time approval.  I would like to gather the parts needed to do a swap.

@67 m20F chump, it is my understanding that their are a number of approvals for the J cowl, most of the successful ones are done under 337. The previous owner of my airplane intended to do the swap but elected to restore a IO-550 power V tail rather then spend the money on the Mooney. However, he collected most of the parts.

You will need the following:

• Top Cowl Half
• Bottom Cowl Half
• Complete Baffling
• The J Airbox including ram air
• The firewall based mounting zues fastener ring
• Cowl flaps from a J
• The Lasar oil cooler relocation kit
• A prop and spinner combination that supports the J, (I have a Top prop with a J spinner.)

While it is not an extensive list it is a lot of work. Their is an order to things if you want to slowly do it over time. For example, my airplane has the oil cooler relocation kit and the top prop for a 201. Without starting with those two mods you will not be able to fly the J cowl.

I have a J cowl for my M20E, it is about 10K in labor to install. That assumes you have all the parts for it.

Never lost a friend in a Mooney but lost quite a few for being in aviation for such a short time.
One in a Queen Air just out of KLZU. One in an RV who got in a spin at night in an RV-7 and did not recover. Two during Airshows, one at PDK and one in China.

The lessons I learned from these where simple:

• Proficiency is not the same recentency 
• Flying an airplane that has been sitting without a preflight will kill you
• You can absolutely outfly your skillset and knowledge with the false confidence a nice panel can give you.
• Engine failures at low altitudes will kill you if you don't get the nose down
• Maneuvers have minimum altitudes for a reason, it never hurts to add 1 or 2K more for the unexpected.

It is also worth noting that none of them where low time pilots, in fact, the average hour count was around 8000 hours, All of them having at least 700 hours time in type. 

4 hours ago, Yetti said:

The cheapest is Android tablet (has GPS) for about $100 and a Stratux.me  for about $100 and droidefb or Avare.   It has worked great for me for 5 years.    I could buy the $1000 box for the Skyview,   But there is some chance I may make a format converter to do GDL55 to GDL99   but other project are in the way.

I know a ton of experimental guys would love a GDL55 to GDL 99 (GDL 90?) converter. Talking with a friend yesterday who is restoring a variviggen has very limited panel space and is trying to use a GI-275 as a VFR GPS and ADS-B display as it is the smallest way to do all of that. He has a GDL39R but you cant use a GDL39/GDL5X with any non G3X panel mounted equipment.