irishpilot

The short body Mooney's are great. I had a 65E with electric gear. An awesome commuter and IFR platform. Best of luck with your search and don't be afraid to ring some owners up to talk about the model.

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IIRC 252 service ceiling is 28,000 and critical is 24,000.

And the Bravo service ceiling is 25k. I think 252 UL is also pretty good.

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Sounds like you're on a good training path, which is good. Climbing into the FLs takes a while. Two people on board, full fuel (89gal), and 75 lbs of bags will put you over some Bravo useful loads. It's actually the reason I sold it. I loved the high alt capability, but 862# was too low.

Rocky Mtn flying on an IFR flight plan will put you 16k and above. I flew several times in/out of KGUC on an IFR flight plan, and through pockets of IMC, but I used a ceiling of 2,000 as a minimum.

Flying VMC, I typically would stay between 12-14k and use the mtn passes. You can fly lower, but I found that to be the sweet spot so you can be on or off O2 as needed.

Above 18k and loaded, my Bravo would be at around 500 fpm climb. This will apply to most piston aircraft that approach their turbo's critical altitude.

I hope @donkaye joins this Convo as he is one of the highest time Bravo owners and CFIIs I know. His Bravo knowledge far exceeds mine.

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Okay, I’ll bite. First, I’m a long time military pilot and CFI/II who owned a M20E and Bravo (with FIKI) and grew up flying in Colorado and I fly there regularly from Texas.

What is your current experience and what are you flying? Do you have your Instrument rating? Do you plan on flying more than 100 hrs per year?

I ask these questions to help us give you our best advice. If you plan on flying yourself and two pax + bags nonstop 700 nm, you can rule out Bravos. They just don’t have the useful load you need. Do you plan to fly to GUC all four seasons? You mentioned FIKI. If so, you’ll need a lot of training, and you’ll need a lot of latitude on when you’ll be able to make the trip, even with FIKI.

As for capability, even though I fly for a living in lager, faster aircraft, I’m not going to fly the ILS RWY 06 hard IFR in the winter time in a Mooney. In a single engine piston, single pilot, that just exceeds my risk matrix. I’ve flown many times to KGUC for skiing and in the summer, and I adjust my times so that I arrive/depart Day VMC.

If you’re just going to make leisure trips vs for work, it will take away a lot of the pressure to “make it happen” or “get-there-it is.”

I’m glad you’re asking questions here and doing your research. All I ask is you invest in yourself before you invest in a high performance piston. PM me if you’d like to chat more as Mooney’s and Colorado are two of my favorite topics!


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Icing isn't always predictable and what is forecast to be light or moderate icing, can turn severe pretty quick. Clear ice can build rapidly and depending on conditions, a pilot can't escape. With icing, you have four options: 1) keep flying in it, 2) descend, 3) climb, or 4) turn around.

Environmentals will drive what is possible, and a pilot's ability to interpret real-time info will raise the success of choosing the right option.

Lastly, if you don't have experience with icing, keep your GO/NO GO decisions very conservative and turn around if you get into unexpected icing and don't know how large the area is. With my Bravo I never planned to fly into known icing, and used it when temps dropped within range. TKS must be used preemptively vs reactively like boots.

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I'm a big fan of Mike Busch and overhauling an engine when it tells you it's time. Lots of YouTube videos and EAA seminars of his talks. His service SavvyMx has saved me lots of $$.

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I'm looking to fly my plane into Atlanta for DTC training the week of 6/12-6/19. My options are to fly into ATL (too expensive) or KFTY (slightly less expensive). I'm just wondering if any MSers who fly out of the Atlanta metro area? If so, I'm looking for a hangar or airport tie-down for the week. I'm willing to pay rent for that week. Thanks in advance!

18.5-19.5 gph for the Bravo. FIKI costs about 5 kts or so. My previous FIKI Bravo would true out at 195 at FL210, and I planned for 190 in the high teens. Non-FIKI will do over 200 kts. A few Bravo owners can get their birds to run LOP, but the induction system isn't well-suited like the IO-550 is (think Ovation). The big issue I had with my Bravo was the POH is worthless for engine parameters as they published insane power settings to get their marketing speeds high. The POH has 34" MP/2400 rpm as a cruise setting and it is a great way to go through cylinders. A good Bravo instructor is a must when you get your transition training. Useful load is the limiting factor with Bravos. 850-950# depending on configuration. 

Encores are rarer than a hen's tooth. At least when I was in the market for a turbo Mooney. For the money, the Bravo has a great valuation.

First, ask yourself if a turbo is desired or required. If it is desired, the Ovation and Bravo are sister planes with different powerplants and both are great. The Acclaim is a step up in performance, engine complexity, and cost (purchase, mx, and insurance).

I've never heard an Encore owner complain about their bird. They're very efficient.

I hope this helps.

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Here's my perspective as I owned a Bravo and now fly behind an IO-550N, albeit mounted in a Lancair ES. The Bravo has a higher pilot task loading than an Ovation due to engine management with the turbo. It also doesn't typically like to be flown LOP, and has a limited UL with FIKI (mine was 862 UL).

It is an awesome high-alt 2 person+bag cross country platform, or 3 person with half tanks and day bags. It is not a 4 person aircraft. I had standard tanks and it was good for 700 miles a 29"/2400 and 900 at 27"/2200rpm. I planned for 18-19 gph when flying 29"/2400.

The IO-550G or N is a sweet running engine. Better T/O performance and it'll run LOP all day long and twice on Sunday. It's dead simple to operate and has a very wide power band curve.

Bottom line, if you can find an Ovation or Bravo with FIKI, I'd take a hard look at how much time you'd really need at high alt. As a data point, this winter I flew my Lancair from TX to NV, NM, twice to AZ, and twice to CO. I limited myself to no flying in IMC over the Rockies and no flying in areas of forecast icing and only had to do small mods to my routes and altitudes.

Lastly, both are awesome and long bodies are super comfortable. Best of luck in your search!

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In my weaker moments, especially after major unexpected aviation expenses, I daydream about going experimental.
 

I joined the dark side. Experimental is pretty awesome, but I do miss Mooneyspace!

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@Jonny, I applaud your approach and factory maintenance & inspections are a great way to keep owners involved. 

I sold my Bravo because my family outgrew the UL and I was bummed to sell. If a future UL increase can get long body Mooneys between 1100-1300 UL, they would outclass a lot of competing certified aircraft in that market segment.

Mooney is a great aircraft and I'm happy to hear you're building back the ties to the factory and the heritage that comes with it. Thanks for the update and keep them coming!

 

Good luck in your search. M20Es are great and economic planes.

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I sold my Bravo because UL was too limiting for a family of four. Mine was a 2000 with FIKI and 862 UL. That being said, it is awesome for 2 ppl + bags and full fuel. Quite a capable plane.

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2 minutes ago, cliffy said:

"Pass his BFR"?  Why would we think he even HAD a BFR?

Valid.

This is a perfect example of a pilot slipping through to the cracks. I'm not sure how he's passed his BFRs with lack of mission planning, W&B, understanding of fuel calculations, as well as the principles of aerodynamics. These knowledge gaps should be evident with any ground and flight eval.

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[mention=14366]irishpilot[/mention] the Bravo makes about 200HP at 28/2400, (about 75%), and 18.5gph (1550TIT) or so, all the way to 22,000ft critical altitutde
the Ovation can only make 200HP at 22.5/2400 up to 8,000ft @13.7-15.7gph
you don';t have to go up into the FLs for a Bravo to go faster than an Ovation
 

I'm tracking. The Bravo is a great plane and I sold mine because I needed more UL and Mooney keeps dragging their feet on a GW STC for the long bodies.

The turbo is great for Rockies and high DA flying, but the XC speed difference in a Bravo in the low FLs and an Ovation at 10k isn't that much.

Take all my comments with a grain of salt. I quit Mooney and now fly a Lancair ES with the IO-550N. I did my yearly trip TX-CO last week and flew it between 8,500-11,500 and it does 177 TAS LOP burning 12.5 gph. It did that trip within 10 min of my Bravo and burned 50 gal vs the Bravo's 72 gal.

To be fair, for high alt and mountain flying, I'd still prefer a turbo. But since I do that 1-2 per year, the NA IO-550N is a beast and I can do without the turbo. I can see why the Ovation dudes do the N conversion.

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On 12/30/2021 at 5:39 PM, LANCECASPER said:

. That means for every 1000 hours of cruise on the Ovation, the Bravo has covered the same distance in 900 hours. I've owned them both, they are both excellent airplanes but the cost of running them is not much different when you factor everything in. I am new at Acclaim ownership so we'll have to see how that goes, but the speed difference between the Acclaim and the Bravo so far is noteworthy on the same fuel flow. The Acclaim also gives the option of running lean of peak which I am enjoying. 

I beg to disagree. Operating costs are higher for Bravos as well as engine reserve. Bravo engines are around $80k reman and around $65k for field overhaul. Those are ballpark. I think IO-550G/Ns are $60k and $40k respectively. Bravos are also very thirsty. Mine averaged 18.5 gph. The IO-500 loves LOP and gets 12.5-13 gph doing so. It's simpler to operate and you don't have TIT issues to worry about. A bravo with wet wing isn't a 200 kt bird unless you go to the FLs. Mine was a good 185 kt bird at 17.5 and 194 kt bird at FL210. 

Bravos are a great plane, but you need to be in the FLs to really see the speed differential. I currently fly a plane with the IO-550N and love it's simplicity and speed.

Thread moved to Safety & Accident section. 

wow, tough crowd. My bad...Carbon MONOXIDE. Are we good now?

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Unless you’re using a Sodastream to make Italian sodas in flight you usually don’t have to worry about a CO2 leak…
My son is starting up his flight training again and I’m giving him a Stratux (to a avoid airplanes and weather), pulse ox (to avoid hypoxia), CO monitor (since I don’t trust those dots) and a foreflight subscription. I think if everyone used this stuff (and I think most of us do) then we could avoid a handful of preventable accidents every year. He has a sodastream as well and can make a pretty refreshing Italian soda— just not in the airpalne.

You are correct, a Stratus and Sentry pucks do provide CO2 detection as well.

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First, I'm glad you made it safely back on the ground. Second, thanks for sharing your story. I think too often we don't share stories like this for fear of reprisal. However, this is how we as a community learn, so my hat's off to you!

I agree with others that this could have been CO2 poisoning, or it could have been rapid hypoxic mixed with you not feeling well. Were you using canulas or a mask? Do you have an O2 metering device? Same with pulse ox.

My min equipment for flying high and solo are an additional mask/canulas, pulse ox, CO2 detector (every flight) and pulse ox. There are a lot of articles on blood O2 count, but most healthy adults should be between 98-100% on the ground. I'd recommend not going below 90% inflight, and either bump up the O2 flow or descend if unable to maintain in the 90s.

I use the AV8 portable CO2 detector. We had a group buy on MS a while back for them. I think around $100. It is awesome and loud so I can hear it over the engine noise.

Your doctor could be spot on as to the cause of your incident, but with these tools, you will be able to rule out certain causes. Just a recommendation.

I think you made a good risk assessment, and applied operational risk management to help you pick the least poor option in a tight situation. I also agree with your assessment that declaring an emergency is prudent. Overall, I'm glad you and the plane are safe and ready to fly again.

As to the mechanical fail, this is a known issue on our TKS systems, and I agree with the community practice of running the system at least once per month and prime before needing to use it inflight.


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I did not - I just used this data https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/type/M20P
I'd be happy to repost with data normalized by registered fleet size if someone has that data handy, though that information may still be confounded by the unknown true number of operational aircraft and the number of hours flown.

I wasn't able to find a reliable source of registered Mooney's by year.

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@dxb , this is an interesting discussion. When you researched this info, did you come across the registered number of Mooney's per year? The fleet is most likely decreasing in size over the last five years.

Thanks for posting!

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Hello there and welcome! I'm moving this thread to the General section.

I'm sure you'll get great advice.

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