THill182

To close the loop: It was the sensor. Replaced sensor and readings are normal again on the Moritz gauge. So no major panel redo required this time... Phew...

Thanks again. By the way: Mine is a 2000 O2, upgraded to O3 (310HP). The original RPM gage is technically INOP and part of the 310HP conversion is the extra legal RPM gauge. Still, the old one shows the numbers correctly (even though max RPM now is >2,500 RPM). I hate the power of consensus when it means major cost and downtime -- but after reading all the other posts and thread on Moritz gauges, and given that even Don says "let it go" when the time comes -- I'll just hope it's the sensor for now and start planning for a major upgrade... PS: Maybe it is just that I am older now: But it seems to me that the stuff that was in the panel when I learned to fly 30 years ago was timeless: No electronics that became obsolete. In particular with engine gauging, why do I need fancy displays (not that the Moritz was particularly "fancy"). Anyway, no better way to turn discretionary income into noise than owning an airplane....

Thanks for feedback. My panel is pretty much original at this point, and frankly I like it (very used to it, know what it is like when individual components fail, etc.) Generally have toyed with idea to go electric but never quite saw an urgent need. I'll replace the sensor and have an avionics shop look over connections once more. If it is the Moritz gage and either way, will start planning for some downtime to refurbish a few items (fuel system overhaul and magneto service is coming up anyway). Right now I have a JPI EDM 700 and a Shadin fuel flow, and another RPM gage after the 310HP (2700 RPM) upgrade. So most of the Moritz functionality is already displayed somewhere else. Is there a cheap/easy way to put oil temps, ambient temps, and maybe something else useful into the same (rectangular) space? I hate to recut the panel, and then put in old steam gages; but the alternative is the 40k redo, followed by training costs/time to re-familiarize myself with a new panel and gages, and the pucker factor when things fail that I have never seen before. Hopefully, it's just the sensor....

Question on how best to troubleshoot: About 4 hours out of my last annual, on a cross-country, the Moritz EGT gage started to fluctuate wildly (was running LOP at the time), and then eventually settled at the bottom (around 500F as I recall). The EDM was stable and the Engine ran just fine. When I start the plane up when it's cold, the EGT starts showing the increase in EGT, but now stops at the low end/display at/around 500F.I It hasn't been essential for operations since I have an EDM700 that displays everything I need to know. Still, of course I want to fix that. My mechanic told me that there is nothing obviously missing or loose anywhere near the sensor. How best to troubleshoot this, without starting to replace parts to see what works. Is there a procedure to test the sensor, or the Moritz gage (which, if it is broken, not sure if/how to repair that...). Anyone know? PS: 2000 Ovation II, with 310 HP conversion.

Actually, my current setup is based on steam gages, but flies GPS steering and approaches (WAAS certified Garmin 5/430; KFC 225 Autopilot). The handhelds are for georeferenced charts, weather, and so on, i.e., aids to know or augment situational awareness and awareness of weather. Anyway, didn't want to hijack this thread. I am actually planning to upgrade to G500 and other pieces this year, but really, my main consideration is because I want to have an airplane with modern avionics, and also, because at current prices that installation adds almost as much value to the aircraft as the cost of installation...

Just as a side note: For someone (like me) who is pondering the G500 upgrade from steam -- this is a "funny" (and perhaps eye-opening) discussion: If I go all glass I will immediately be "last generation". Not something I am excited about. I sometimes think that the way to go is to keep your panel as it came and however it came, and invest in the best portable enhancements out there, so something based on Ipad etc. Frankly, I have all the moving maps I want in my cockpit (on an Ipad, portable Garmin 696). I guess victor airways driving the autopilot would be nice, but in practice I rarely fly them, and the arrivals are all in my G5/430W. Just a thought, off-topic...

That looks like a serious VFR-only panel -- i.e., the lack of a panel. The downtime is something I am also trying to minimize...

CARUSOAM: I am in the middle and near Autopilots Central in Tulsa (who always has done very high quality installations in my planes over nearly 2 decades). I personally am intrigued at this point by the picture of the 2 Aspens and JPI EDM 930 in an earlier post. I will discuss this with Autopilots Central how exactly the interfaces in my panel may work (i.e., with autopilot, rate-of-climb, TCAS, strikefinder (?), weather, approaches, ...). Will keep you all posted as I will proceed likely later this year (earliest I could get in for an install is June/July).

Thanks for the encouraging notes; there is that thought that time & life are short and often unpredictable, and while one has the opportunity and fortunate circumstances to enjoy something without jeopardizing "the farm" (or hurting anyone) -- why not do that. Regarding the "nice interior": No doubt, the overall shape of the plane is critical. Mine has been hangared and I have been using seat covers pretty much from the beginning. Mostly my paint on the nose probably needs to be touched up or redone at some point, but else it'll clean up nicely. I also have AC, inadvertent Ice, active TCAS, 310 HP, and 120 Gallons usable (fly form Tulsa to Seattle nonstop if you like to sit for long stretches at a time...:) ). Only problem is some damage in 2000 (first year) when the engine quit on the first owner forcing him to run off the runway -- that all was repaired at Mooney, and the plane does really well in all other respects (cruise at 175kt to 180kt at 13.5 GPH LOP; that is about the highest setting I run it at). Anyway, now it is a matter of timing. The install will take several weeks and the first slot is not until mid-summer(!). But I feel there are colorful computer screens in my future!

Thanks for all the input. Realistically, I must think about both a glass update, ADS-B, and a better engine monitor -- in other words: Major surgery! One thing that might make that more palatable is that when I look at used-airplane pricing, updated glass cockpits have a clear value: I am guestimating that across different aircraft types (single engine pistons), it looks to me like a G500 all-glass adds at least 30k to 50k (more than the install?). That is my impression after an informal review of what is out there for sale. I am pretty certain that updated glass cockpits also make it easier to move a used airplane. I have no plans to give up my Ovation, but of course the time will come eventually. Then again, I hope to outlive the useful / commercial life of current glass cockpit technologies, so perhaps by that logic should wait a bit longer for the next big thing (Wireless hotspots and in-flight internet; heads-up display, or just maybe one box that does-it-all and is a fully integrated flight deck....). Anyway, mostly confusing at this point. (I know there are lots of other discussions here about the value of glass; don't want to reopen that...)

Yeah; it now feels complicated. I have been working with Autopilots Central in Tulsa, and I know they have been doing probably over a hundred of installs like this since the G500 line was certified (for / in a Mooney Ovation); in fact my backup AI was specifically chosen presumably to function as a legal backup for an all-electric system.... they can get the paperwork right....

That is the scary part: This is actually news to me! When I almost "pulled the trigger" on a G500 upgrade a few years back, I was told that I could be electric-only without the extra alternator (I only have one!). How will I know for sure? Would Garmin give an authoritative answer? I hate to call the FAA. Can I trust my very well reputed avionics shop?

Indeed; probably allows you to remove the front window since there is hardly any reason any more to look outside ... Not to open yet another can-of-worms: But is it fair to say that owners are pretty happy with their Aspen's -- as happy as Garmin owners are with their G500'ds? I know one pilot who keeps telling me that Aspen's are not reliable. But I greatly suspect that the quality of the installation shop there may have more to do with that than the equipment itself. Is there any consensus with respect to quality comparing Gamin and Aspen? Else, this looks indeed like a GREAT panel.

That is a good point! The light in one of my gages already is out during the day, still works at night when I turn on illumination manually. So far they all do perform their primary function though (the RPM gage is not useful since I upgraded to 2700 RPM and 310 HP). What would you recommend? Can one wire it all into the G500 somewhere? Or do I need a brand new display? What I really would like to have is a way to download all engine/flight data for analysis. Right now my JPI engine monitoring equipment (CHT, EGT) only displays info but stores no history. What would be the most economical way to replace the whole Moritz cluster with a single more capable and useful display & gaging? And while we're at it: How are you (with the 2000-vintage KFC 225 setup + 530W/430W + Bendix/King Transponder) planning on complying with ADS-B mandates? (Now probably getting real expensive -- hope it won't be more economical to just buy a new plane...)

Thank you Steve, really appreciate the info. So I will need extra cards if I want to show approach plates or taxi diagrams on the G500 -- makes sense since that info is currently not on the data cards in my 530W. I will call Garmin to find out what kind of deal they might have for "heavy users" of their products (between the 540W, 430W, 695 portable, and potentially Ipad (currently with the AOPA application). Thanks again, exactly what I wanted to know. TOM

Thanks; I'll give Garmin a call to figure out what the requirements are and what the options are.... Thanks

I know this has been discussed extensively, but I didn't see the specific answer to my question. And my avionics shop gave me an unexpected answer: If I update my 2000 M20R with the part-vacuum driven vintage KFC 225 system and a Garmin 530 / 430 combo (WAAS) -- to a Garmin G500 system, how many data card subscriptions will I need for the entire system? Will I need 2 extra cards for each of the G500'ds? Or do I only need those if I want the Jepp charts? I am trying to figure out cost-of-ownership. I already have subscriptions on an Ipad and another handheld Garmin 695 with all maps and plates. So I really don't need yet another subscription to update. If the G500 acts just like a regular AI and DG that it replaces, then I won't need extra subscriptions. That's what the avionics shop told me (don't need another subscription). Anyone know the answer to this? Note that I want to maintain IFR certification of course!

I had a similar problem with my IO550G (Ovation) after an overhaul that included a new oil cooler. The overhaul was done extremely well I think, and the engine ran without any vibration at all (compared to what it was before anyway_. In the winter, even at moderately cold temps only, Oil temps would go into the yellow range (below 170F), and even below 160. Ultimately and after checking everything (replacing valve that is supposed to regulate this), the mechanic opined that perhaps the engine is just running cold because of little friction -- all parts are very well fitted. Anyway, at some point I just accepted that this is how it works, and I now use aluminum tape on the oil cooler in the winter, eventually covering about 75% of the surface when it's cold. The bonus is that in the summer when it is really hot I remove all aluminum tape from the oil cooler, and the engine remains nicely cool (185F to 190F).

For the record: Tweaking the baffling every so slightly, filling in a few apparent holes in the baffling, seemed to have cured my Cyl #3/#4 elevated CHT's (IO550G, 310hp). Now all are in line with each other, and I can run at high power settings LOP even at high altitudes without going over 360F CHT on any cylinder. Climbout's are still a bit of a challenge now that the ambient temps have become summer like around here, but I can keep it all below 400F. Also, the cylinders have now 15 hours or less on them, so I expect temps to continue dropping....

Definitely useful; that is my next step to go carefully through the baffling. Will look at that part carefully. Thanks!

Very interesting. I am having a similar problem after a complete TOP overhaul. All went well, but on my IO550G (310hp conversion), now cylinders 3 and 4 (the middle one) run 20F hotter on CHT than the others. On climb-out, there is no way to keep them below 400F. Prior to the TOP no cylinder would go above 380 (by much anyway). Now, other cylinders don't either, but #3 and #4 will go that high, and remain 20F higher in cruise also (at/below 360F). Any particular piece of the baffling from your picture above or mine below that might be responsible? Anything in particular to look at? (What part number?)

Thanks for these replies! That is what I thought looking through my manuals. What is a bit confusing though is why the Shadin Fuel Flow gage fluctuates wildly, while the Moritz gage seems accurate and is for sure (mostly) stable. Given that I have a single transducer (most likely), then the fault must be in the wiring from the Shadin to the transducer, not in the transducer itself. Anyway, I think we now know how to troubleshoot this (start with the connections to the Shadin gage).

I am getting weird readings on my Shadin Fuel Flow gage in my 2000 Ovation. This happened before, where the fuel flow ran up and down wildly, and then settled at 0 (zero; the plane was still flying, so it's an indicator problem....). Once it happened that the Moritz gage also fluctuated, but this time it doesn't seem to. My question is: If I have the default fuel flow gage and a Shadin Fuel Flow gage in my panel, does that mean I have 2 actual sensors or 1? So far we have tried to fix the connectors/cables up on the firewall, and the first time around that fixed it. But this time it doesn't seem to fix it. Does anyone know?

carusoam: I am disappointed that I have those problems after only 1100 to 1200 hours. I am flying LOP in cruise all the time. One mistake I may have made is that I tried to "save-the-engine", so usually flew 60% power, and never more than 65% and 2550-2600RPM; I since learned and believe that there is no value in this, and it's best to run 75% when available). I have the "pixie hole", and my CHT's never go past 380F (in fact #5 is not the hottest any more); in cruise all cylinders are well below 340F actually at any altitude. On climb-out I fly ROP, always 2 or 3 "clicks" to the left of the "blue-zone" on the Moritz gages; so I am running very rich to altitude, keeping CHT's below 380. Usually, I pull back to 24 Hg MP and 2,600 RPM on initial climb out after 1 minute or so (after reaching 1200ft AG). For about 300 hours a few years back, my fuel-flow wasn't set up right (was set up by someone to 270 hp, not 310 hp); that caused a bit higher CHT's for a few months, before I had that fixed. I have one other theory: There was a lot of "movement" at my work, so that I ended up for 6 to 8 months flying less regularly, sometimes letting the plane sit for 3 weeks even 4 weeks, and often flying for practice mostly, so short 1-2 hour trips with lots of touch and goes, approaches, and so on. After that it all started with the oil usage. Before that time, I flew a lot for business, and my pattern was to fly mostly x-country on 3-4 hour trips. One final thought: Look through ASO or Controller, or Trade-a-Plane, and look at the TSMOH or since TOP for Ovations: They almost all have had work done at 1200 hours or less. Compare that with my (favorite previous) plane, the 182 Skylane RG with the Lycoming O540: Many/most of them have 2000+ hours on the engine. So overall, I feel that I was not particularly unlucky, or unusually inept at the controls (my 182 never had any engine problems in 1500 hours). My plan now is to use Camguard regularly, continue to use 100 weight oil (as I always had, in all weathers), pre-heat religiously (as I always had), but not "baby-the-engine" any more, but fly it at/below 75% and LOP. I hope to report on the results of that experiment in 8 years from now when I should be approaching 1000 hours on my new cylinders without any problems

Thanks Steve; really helpful. Based on the other replies posted here, my mechanic has ordered new steel cylinders for the G engine. But I REALLY appreciate the contact info if/as we run into any issues. This is my second time around (for a TOP), and the last one went quite well. I wish the cylinders would have lasted longer (than 1200 hours; and I may have made them last longer by just fixing one or two of the 6 cylinders), but because of the way my engine-life went (I had a cracked case that necessitated a bottom overhaul after my top overhaul -- long story), if this all works out I have may 6-10 years of unencumbered motoring and then just buy a new motor. Anyway, that is the plan....