RobertL

The Aztec (NA) routinely goes to FL150-160 (in Europe transition level can be as low as 3000') and have never had a mag issue - is this potential misfiring related to the higher output available to turbos in the teens?

Am Robert and have flown since '76 - currently working in Italy and have been flying an Aztec for the last 10 years. Never flown a Mooney but when I do my research on what I might fly/own next the vintage Mooneys keep coming back as great value for money - in particular the Super 21/20E. Do not appear to suffer from the existential angst of Beech vs Mooney, although if Piper parts support were better might be exposed to a bit of Comanche 250/260 vs Mooney debate. Have got time in Arrows, 172RG and 210s but the Gordon Baxter articles must have left a hard wire for the Mooney. One of the benefits of flying in Italy is the occasional time in a SF260 - beautifu, mil spec built and 185 KTAS but with a fiendish fuel system and I suspect an interesting maintenance budget!

The halcyon world of GA and Mooney flying in the US! After 10 years of Aztruck flying, am doing my homework on Mooney ownership although am doubtful that $1k or EUR1k or GBP1k per month has not been possible in Europe for many years. My homework suggests that $6k pa is realistic for a 'normal' annual, typical fuel bill would be $100 an hour. Have seen some vintage Mooneys experience a $20k annual (which is more than an Aztruck!) without particular major work. With insurance, avionics, engine/prop reserve (Europe requires an overhaul every 6 years) - European ownership costs for 100 hour pa would be more like $22k+ This excludes capital opportunity or borrowing cost. To put this into context an IFR (70's vintage) C172 typically rents for $190-225 per hour!

Not wanting to start a thread drift, or cover old ground, but some pluses for the vintage crowd might be: johnson bar, much lower capital value (50% or less?), take off/landing distance performance, easier maintenance access, retro look. For the J: 10 KTAS +, better panel layout, modern streamlined looks, probably better avionics (HSI/AP). The C/E/F vs J debate will run for many years - while good vintage Mooneys can be found below $40-50k am tending to focus on these in my search.

Have had some mechanics recommend the vintage Mooney over the 201 because of the access issue - is this correct? ie does a 201 also have the loss of access panels described in this thread?

My a/c has always lived outside - don't all Aztecs? If the dreaded freezing fog is around only a warm hangar will work in my view. If overnight frost and sunny then a leather chamois and the sun might work. Am very doubtful of the warm water technique as you are never sure where it might collect and re-freeze. Ditto for the milder, home made solutions with de-icing.

Am inching towards my pre-buy on a 1966 20E - hopefully gets started next week. It has a three blader which I assume means no AD issue, but Parker above mentions the possibility of vibration - is there an RPM sweetspot (2500?) to address this? The manual has the long range setting at 1900 and 38% power for 8 hours bladder bursting endurance, hopefully the three blader can cope there as well. The seller claims it does improve ground clearance.

I am quite an observer of flying comfortably below maneouvering speed in my current ride (PA23 250) when encountering turbulence, which below gross would typically be MIAS140 (149mph IAS at MGW). A vintage Mooney with top of green arc at 150 mph (Vmo of 130mph at GW?), would therefore have to operate at maximum range setting per Owner's Manual of 1950 RPM and 16.8 in.MP to be comfortably close to Vmo? A side benefit is that you are getting 20 mpg+ at these settings.

A fellow European forumite e-mailed me this link http://www.advantageavionics.com/N4MY_After%20002c.jpg This kind of work is a major mod in Europe so bureaucratically (the old saw of the paperwork weighing as much as the 'plane applies), and cost wise, would require a passionate devotion to a classic airframe. Ironically not having either an ADF or DME (unless remote feeding into the G500?) the aircraft would not be IFR in Europe! The ADF requirement might be waived 2012+, but the DME requirement (GPS not a substitute) likely to stay through 2020 and beyond. I wonder what speed gain and useful weight gain a typical Vintage Mooney might get once it shed the classic Bendix 12D ADF?

It does have shoulder safety belts (three point) for the front seat occupants. It has a three blade prop as mentioned, which may have some harmonic issues (am presuming none at the ideal 2500 RPM), but which hopefully means the recurring AD is taken care of. Alternator, engine analyser, PC link to heading bug all on the upgrade list if acquired. By my count there is possibly only half a dozen to a dozen 20E in Europe - all seem much cheaper than the F which seems to trade at not much of a discount/close to an early J. Pre-69 models manual u/c do not have the following of the US, or over time have made their way back stateside - or Texas itself (I assume all Mooneys have a homing instinct for the Lone Star state).

Thankyou all for the feedback, have passed it on to the A+P arranging the pre-buy. The a/c in question has lived its entire history in the foggy isles (otherwise Great Britain), and while it may have been hangared and is currently in the midlands I suspect like many GA horses in the UK it has lived a fair amount outside. Regular corrosion prevention does seem the mark of good maintenance but with few vintage Mooneys in the UK (most live in Germany, presumably because they are not suitable for farm strip flying once the damp sets in), I think most A+Ps will have to develop their skills. My A+P used to annual a M20F so has some experience, but would suggest not that of a MSC. Will keep you posted and hopefully can get the PC to speak to the heading bug - I noticed this was also quite an economical upgrade.

Have operated a P brand twin for 10 years and am now 'upgrading' to a Mooney. Typical mission will be 200nm in light IFR, with about 8-10 trips of around 550nm a year. Payload of 600lbs OK and typically 1-2 passengers with some luggage. Occasionally a/c landed on firm grass. Have lived through the experience of caring for a 37 year old aircraft, and other for very lackluster P parts support the experience has been quite good as long as you spend on the preventive maintenance. Have found (on paper) a nice 20E with ca3500 TT and 800 SOH - reasonable IFR (HSI and 430), but only PC no autopilot, plus 3 blade prop (does this produce better prop clearance?). Multiple owners so am not sure it has been pampered, but appears to have enjoyed reasonable useage in recent years (100hrs pa+). Armstrong ie Johnson bar u/c which I rate as a positive. Will carry out a pre buy 'annual' inspection, but note a fair amount of corrosion discussion on the brand, despite the quality of construction reputation. If I might check out some showstopper questions: SB208 - how often is it carried out in practice? Assuming an a/c has received normal maintenance, is this a major showstopper or complying is a reasonable exercise Corrosion X fogging treatment - again appears to be something peculiar to mooniacdom - is this due to excessive pampering or does the structure acquire potentially terminal rust spots? For example my existing a/c has the original zinc chrome treatment and gets a high quality re paint every 15-20 years - no 'fogging' etc Fuel re-sealing - something reasonably straightforward to remedy? - the a/c in question appears to be clean in this respect Johnson bar manual u/c - the engineering seems bullet proof - does age/wear result in major components needing replacement? Control rods/bushings/moving tail - again are they showing good longevity, or is this an area where major work is likely to be required as these airframes age? Am skipping the usual perisheables (engine, accessories, rubber donuts) as this will be reflected in the price post pre-buy. Am I missing any showstoppers (other than major DH, etc)? In terms of mods am only considering the tuned exhaust when the engine is due an OH and an EDM analyser (already has GAMIs) - the a/c is typically going to operate at 10,000 - 12,000', so speed mods seem a bit redundant. Am hoping the PC and the brand's reputation for IFR stability means I can do without an A/P. Am aiming for 140KTAS block speed (65%) and 9gph - 550nm legs may in practice only leave VFR reserves. Finally in terms of transition training I have a reasonable experience in conventional gear SE and Arrows, plus over 50% of my experience in a twin - am assuming that with good speed control and ensuring landing MLG first, transition should be enjoyable (u/c operation in IFR might be interesting to avoid vertigo) - am 5'9'' and 180lbs so comfort/fit should not be a problem? Thank you for any feedback - and by the strength of the Forum clearly the brand has a devoted following.