KSMooniac

My feelings are that the little things need to be exercised in addition to the engine. The rod end ball joints, radio knobs, flap and gear motors, gyros, etc. are what I'm thinking about. Proximity to the coast is a bad thing in this regard, too. The engine is the least of my worries since there is a method to pickle one, but all of those other items could turn into major nuiscances when bringing it back to life, both in down time and cost potential. That is why it is best to fly regularly... Thinking ahead again, it might be worth a call to Jimmy G at All American (or someone else as knowledgeable) and ask a pro about a crystal ball prediction for the market in the next 6 months as well as +3 years. My hunch would be we are near the bottom for vintage plane values, with upgraded planes starting to trend upwards slightly. M20S models (10-ish years old) can only continue to depreciate, especially as more Ovations age (especially G1000 variants that will presumably have higher demand). It might make the most sense to go ahead and part with your baby later this year, invest the money, and start working towards purchasing that M20S when you return...it should be a near-certainty that it will be easier to buy one in the future than today, barring rampant inflation or some other external factor. If you weren't really interested in upgrading, and could have someone exercise the F while you're away, then it would make more sense to keep it. The suggestion about bringning it overseas would be very intriguing too, provided you have (a) the time to fly it and ( the rules allow it over there (I have no idea). There is a strange lease-back operation at my home base that might work for you if there is something similar at your base...one guy administrates the operation using various airplanes from various owners, along with various freelance instructors as appropriate. The planes get put on the line like ordinary rentals, but the checkout requirements vary with each plane/owner. This of course opens up the planes to potential yahoos, but if you structure the checkout requirements appropriately, it can work well enough to keep the plane flying without getting abused. There has to be a sweet spot for a reliable/efficient traveling plane that might suit some serious pilots in your area...you could set the rate high enough to discourage the idiots (maybe!) and mandate checkouts with a Mooney-savvy CFI of your choosing in order to minimize the risk. The plane also becomes a business so there are tax advantages at this point too, so it might help defray some of the cost of ownership while you are unable to use it. Personally, I would have a hard time letting others fly my baby, especially when I'm half-the-world away and can't supervise! But, I would consider doing something like that if it meant I could keep it while I had no plans to upgrade (my current situation). If I had dreams on something else, though, I think I would move her on to the next caretaker and just bide my time until returning. It is quite the dilemma...

George, you know Tom B, correct? He is also an F18/M20E driver in your neck of the woods. I would guess you have already gotten his opinion, but if not, then certainly look him up.

George, CONGRATS! That is a huge honor and responsibility. Selling vs. pickling is a tough call, but since you already have upgrade fever, I would vote for selling. As mentioned above, since you have quite a few months before leaving, I think it would be a great idea to try to find that special buyer, perhaps local to you, that would either go in as a partner, or buy it outright and perhaps give you a chance to buy back in upon your return. As time gets shorter, then perhaps put it on the market in conventional fashion and let her fly away to a new owner. Mooneys want to fly, and I shudder to think about one sitting idle for a few years...even if the engine is pickled, you still need to worry about the rest of the airframe, electrical bits, etc. that should be exercised regularly. Since we're in a down market currently, it is tough to predict if you would do better selling in the future vs. now, but I would be things will likely never fully recover for our vintage planes. Thus, I think selling now and investing the proceeds with an eye towards M20S acquisition down the road would be the most prudent action. The M20S will likely be more affordable going forward, too. Good luck!

In KS, personal use planes older than 30 years are exempt from property tax...and fortunately my J turned 30 the year I bought it! I did have to pay sales tax though since I bought from an FBO. I think casual sales between individuals do not trigger sales tax here.

the Caravan sign-up should open May 1 from what I've read. I plan to join the Caravan and bring my dad for his first OSH experience. We will camp with the plane because I don't enjoy the logistics and expense of off-field lodging. 3 more months!

This is where Aggies WHOOP! Congrats, Alan. Wish you had the IFR ticket done and could come to TX for some BBQ tomorrow!

I'd start with AOPA first (join the legal plan) and then consult a local attorney familiar with the subject IN YOUR STATE. Every state is different, and some states (like CA, maybe NY) have some non-trivial fees for the corporation that might wipe out other advantages. I consulted with an aviation attorney here before purchasing and had lots of questions concerning occassional business use, letting other pilots use it, etc. and in my case, he said putting it in a business of any sort was just a waste of effort, so just own it as personal property and carry as much insurance as possible. I absolutely abhor bookeeping too, so that is another reason for me to just have it as my own personal property and not track expenses to every last detail... (in case you haven't learned yet, under no circumstances are you to ever add up all of the costs of ownership!!!)

'65-'66 and '77-mid-'80's were relatively booming times with lots of airplanes delivered. As far as J's go, my early model J isn't as "perfect" as some of the ones made in '78 and later as I think they got better with the metal work, cowl fit, etc. as they got experience. I'm not sure if a similar observation could be made with the '64-'66 range, though. I'm not sure "cheap and sloppy" is a fair characterization of the Butler planes...they should be just as stout and safe, but not primed as much inside so you'll need to watch for corrosion. Regarding your candidate '69, if it has most everything you want and is in great overall condition (ie great MX history, no corrosion/damage, etc.) I would not let the manual vs. electric gear be a show-stopper, but that is just me. If it has the slanted 6-pack arrangement, that is way better than the shotgun, but not quite as nice as the now standard 6-pack. Certainly passable for IFR work IMO. Of all the mods that can be done, making a new panel might return the most of the investment, especially if you're able and willing to assist with the work. If it has IFR GPS, autopilot, engine monitor, etc. then just re-arranging everything starting with a new blank panel can be quite rewarding, although a lot of labor. If you haven't already, you should get Jimmy Garrison's latest evaluation tool from the MAPA Log for the pre-J planes, and start making spreadsheets of candidate planes. He breaks it down nicely by year, time, equipment, condition, etc. and you can see the difference between a '69 and a '66 easily. You very likely won't find a perfect plane that has every single mod you want unless you're willing to wait for years and years...once an owner gets such a plane, they are very likely to hang on to it! Set a realistic target and budget (as you have done) and try to get as much of your final plane up-front in a reasonable time frame, and then do what you need to make it yours and perfect. I'd value overall condition and maintenance history first (regular use & maintenance, no damage, fuel tank status etc.), followed by panel upgrades (IFR GPS and autopilot being the biggest items), then engine times and finally cosmetics. Total time on a Mooney doesn't bother me one bit, so long as it was maintained. Jim and Parker have high-time airframes and they're doing just fine! Interior renewal can be done very effectively with a lot of sweat equity, and of course you can pick colors and materials. Ditto for paint, except it is not easy for an owner to assist with that. Fuel tank rehab, if necessary, is difficult and/or expensive. Try to get one with absolutely no leaks/seeps, and preferably a recent reseal (last 5 years +/-) from a major Mooney shop. My story quickly...I was looking for nice modded E or F originally, but my J became available locally albeit at +$20k over my intial budget. It of course had most all of the mods that I would have wished-for an a pre-J, plus way more panel than I hoped to end up with, along with new glass and interior. I got a bigger/longer loan to reach out and get it and am quite happy. It had 2 owners, steady use and maintenance, plus all of those upgrades. I've flown it quite a bit and not had any unscheduled down-time due to issues in more than 400 hours of use over the last 3 years. I had to get the tanks fixed, though, but I knew going in that was coming sooner or later. I got it painted last year, and now it is fully MINE! Paying more up-front for "more" plane has allowed me to fly it much more than pulling it down for windows, interior, panel work, etc. over my ownership period, so that was a positive trade for me. If I couldn't have done that, I'm sure I would be happy get a pre-J for less too and improving it over the years...

I'm like Jim and wish I had manual gear in my J, but of course it isn't an easy option. I had my electric gear motor fail on approach, and the resulting hand-crank op was uneventful, fortunately. I just had to deposit 1 AMU to continue using it. On balance, manual vs. electric gear would way down on my list of must-haves. I would much rather have a standard 6-pack panel, Garmin 530W or 430W (or both), autopilot, etc. more than either gear system. As far as gear systems go, it really doesn't get much simpler than a Mooney IMO. Manual Johnson bar is the simplest of course, but the electro-mechanical one isn't that bad if you compare to some other planes, especially Cessnas. The gear motor, gears, limit switches, donuts, etc. are all potential wear items that need to be checked, but at least we don't have a finicky hydraulic system in addition to all of that. I would place much more priority on the overall condition of your candidate planes and other features like the instrument layout and panel and any other nice upgrades.

Cylinders for the E/F/J cost twice as much as the C because Lycoming is the sole source supplier of those. The C jugs have some aftermarket options. Minimum acceptable compression per Lycoming is 60/80, I believe, although many folks wouldn't be comfortable flying with those values. Maximum oil burn rate per Lycoming is in the neighborhood of 1 qt/hr, too, and many folks wouldn't like that either. I'd also add that a full cylinder replacement might not be warranted if you find a good shop that will work on jugs and only repair items as necessary instead of just swapping entire jug assemblies. It is entirely possible that changing valve guides and making sure the valves seat properly are good enough, along with a cylinder hone and new rings. I had this done on my cylinders last year for ~$1500 for all 4, plus new pistons (+$600) and one new exhaust valve ($150 I think). (R&R labor not included) New cylinders for me would have been ~$7500 + labor. You can do some shopping here: http://www.aeroinstock.com/products/Cylinders/45/0/product_cat/index.html

Not to mention Mooney came out with the M20M and M20R, which effectively killed the Rocket/Missile conversion market...

I wouldn't touch this one either...very strange to try to sell it with the engine off, and you have no idea what might or might not be included until you try to put an engine back on...you'd have to worry about the accessories, baffling, mount, controls, etc. and if you try to buy all of that separately it will be very expensive, plus a lot of hassle to procure. Maybe there was a prop strike or something, but who knows. If you could get the plane as-is with the engine and everything included, it might be worth $60k IMO, but it sure sounds risky to me. I'm not sure what an outright price is for a TSIO-360, but I'd have to guess $40k, so before you have any labor to make it airworthy you'd be at $85k and now you're close to other planes that are ready to fly.

I'm currently using NACOmatic downloaded plates on a CTL Classmate 2 convertible netbook/tablet. It works great and serves as a good enough computer for other tasks, however, I very likely will move to a true tablet later this year when I get a look at the Android and Win7 competitors to the iPad. I like the idea of the iPad very much, but I want to see what else comes out over the next few months...

Alan, when you hit the LF button on the JPI, before you start leaning, hold both buttons down together for a second or two and then it will enter the LOP mode. It is helpful! Once you reach peak, the graph will invert and it will show you the EGT for the last to peak, which is the proper reference when LOP. (When leaning for ROP settings, you use the first to peak.) Lemme know how that works for y'all!

Oh, I should add that I have zero experience with the TSIO-360 engine, so I'm not sure if your MP will stay constant when you go LOP using the "big mixture pull" (BMP) method I described above. You might have to add more throttle, but all you need to remember is fuel flow is the driving factor when LOP and you can use whatever MP and RPM combo you wish. Different RPMs might be smoother, so experiment around. There will be slight efficiency differences too for a given prop and RPM, but not important enough to sweat just yet.

Alan, it should be 13.7 * FF for your engine, so your 8.5 GPH setting = 55%. For your next experiment, you might want to set up in "hi cruise" at a relatively high MP and 2400 or 2500 RPM, and then smoothly and quickly pull back to 11.5 GPH (75%) and see how that works. Once it is stabilized there, you might enrichen slowly until you hit peak, and see how far LOP you were at 11.5 GPH and go back to 11.5 GPH. You don't want to linger at peak for very long...just enough to find a reference point. Hopefully you'll be in the 40-50 dF LOP range at 11.5 GPH. Record your CHTs at that setting and compare them to whatever the book says for 75% ROP at 100 dF ROP.

A flustered pilot might have moved the gear knob after the collapse, so I wouldn't read much into it. Stories like this are reminders why it is important to make sure the gear pre-loads are in-spec, too. It could have been an old-fashioned bad landing, or a maintenance issue, or who knows...

You can always ask the seller or broker for lots of detailed pictures and scans of the log books as a first step in screening. I would want to see steady use of the plane, and consistant maintenance in the logs. If you see 3 or 4 years of logbook entries of only "performed annual inspection per...." with no additional indications of other maintenance on a 40 year old plane, then I would be quite suspicious. If the logs aren't scanned, then the seller should be willing to do that in this market...anything to help move a plane. If they won't, then that should raise a flag IMO. Getting a list of AD and SB compliance should be part of that deal too, and yes, you should expect everything to be kosher for the budget you have in mind. A $20k basketcase...notsomuch. Generally it is up to the buyer to pay for a pre-purchase inspection. If the plane is out-of-annual or nearly so, then you might be able to negotiate a split cost with the seller. Usually the seller would have to correct airworthiness squawks uncovered in the process, but that needs to be negotiated in advance and written into the purchase agreement. If you find a candidate plane away from home and it passes your initial screening, then you can ask someone from here (or AOPA board) if they would be willing to put eyes on it and see if it meets your expectations. Then you can move forward with a plane ticket and pre-buy inspection. Some folks have purchased planes sight-unseen after a successful pre-buy, but I wouldn't want to do that, especially the first time! Word-of-mouth might be the best way to find the right plane too, so your post is a great place to start. Ken Reed just posted a link for a friend's '66 E that looks like a nice plane to me, and I don't think it is advertised on the major sites right now. I found my J via word-of-mouth locally and got a jump on the process before it was advertised. Good luck!

Depends if you buy new or used, and if the shop will take one on trade or if you have to sell it yourself. I'm contemplating upgrading props later this year and will most likely sell my 2-blade McCauley myself via Barnstormers or ebay. If you were to buy that as-removed and sell a 3-blade, you might come out even. If you bought a new Hartzell 2-blade Top Prop (~$7000?) you might end up spending $4-5000 additional.

Well, the MSC network doesn't have the new interior pieces or a full upholstery/interior shop sitting idle. I agree with Gary...if I were leading Mooney I would have drastically reduced the prices for the interior and paint refurbs (maybe even mechanical stuff too) just to keep the lights on the people employed, because once they are laid off, there is no guarantee they'll return on the next upswing. Quotes like $12000 for new interior panels (cheap fiberglass + ultraleather) or $18000 for paint are just crazy when they're trying to cater to us with 25-50 year old planes. The only possible reason that comes to mind for the high prices is perhaps the 18 yr liability clock resets if the factory does any upgrade or maintenance, but I don't know.

I wish my J had the hydraulic flaps, and to a lesser extent, manual gear. There should be no worry whatsoever about getting a Mooney with either system.

Without logs, you will have to go through a long list of ADs and SBs to make sure everything is current, in addition to any annual inspections or overhauls that might be needed. If you know something about the plane (or could find out) then you might be able to figure out where it was maintained and re-create some or much of the history. Depending on the age of the plane and how much is missing, this effort could very well wipe out any savings you think you get by buying it cheap. As Ken said, a 40 yr old plane with no records is obviously missing a lot of history. A 5 year old plane still on the original engine and prop...less of a problem IMO. I agree with him that there are a lot of other good planes at good prices in this market to choose from.

Fuel flow * 13.7 = HP when LOP.

What is the nominal max MP supposed to be? It sure sounds like an induction leak to me, and perhaps one on the exhaust/turbo side as well. Has the shop tried to pressurize the system and use soapy water to look for leaks? Good luck with the troubleshooting! Remember that you'll need a leak-free system for GAMIs to work too. Another small consolation...GAMIs aren't that expensive, at least compared to most things in aviation...

CHT readings should be stable...if you think about the physics you are measuring temperature from a relatively big hunk of aluminum, and it just can't change temps quickly like an EGT probe sticking into an exhaust stream. Thus you have an indication problem, and it is most likely due to the connection between the CHT probe wires to the rest of the harness that goes to the instrument. There are ring terminal connections for each wire at this junction, which are held together by a screw & nut, plus a star washer. The star washer should be *between* the ring terminals, and not under the nut as one would expect. I have no idea why JPI does it this way, but it ought to be checked for your installation. I agree that your fuel flow might be a bit too low, but I'm not an expert on the TCM engines by any stretch of the imagination. There is a complicated Service Bulletin or Service Instruction for setting up the fuel system on these engines, and you might want to have a shop that is familiar with the process perform it for you. You should also have them check the entire system for induction leaks...these could prevent you from running LOP smoothly so investigate that before buying GAMIjectors. There are lots of junctions on the 252 engine that can be leak sources, and you must enure that all are tight before ordering GAMIs b/c they won't work correctly if you have such a leak. Running CHTs below 380 dF is optimal, so I don't think you have anything to worry about there. The 60-70 dF spread of CHT could be lower, but again, I'm not sure what is typical on this engine. You could inspect the baffling and the baffle seals to check for leaks and correct if necessary to reduce that spread. I would check your wire junctions, look for induction leaks, and setup the fuel flow properly as soon as you're able, then repeat the GAMI lean test. Hopefully you can get there easily, and start enjoying faster speeds at lower fuel burns and lower CHTs while LOP! Good luck.