AndreiC

Here is my perspective, as someone who has owned 5 planes so far, over a period of 20+ years, and maybe did not yet drink the Mooney Kool-Aid completely (yet). For reference I have about 1400 hours, am IFR rated (though I don’t fly instruments nearly enough), and now have an M20E. The number one statement I want to make is that while the speed and comfort of a retractable gear/constant speed prop are great, having them is a huge expense which can’t be justified unless you plan to regularly travel distances. My previous plane, which I had for over 10 years, was a Piper Cherokee 180. Useful load was better by close to 100lbs, it had more room inside, the visibility was better, insurance was 1/4 of what I pay now, annuals were 1/3 of those for Mooneys. On a typical 180 mile trip I now save 15 minutes, not a lot. And the Cherokee could handle grass strips better than the Mooney. (I guess; I still have not dared fly into my favorite strip, 2P2 with the M20.) That is to say that Mooneys are great for what they do, travel fast for a little gas, but this *must* be your profile. Building time is certainly not its strength. An old time mechanic that used to do the annuals in a Piper Comanche I owned long time ago used to say “for normal people (meaning not super rich) a retractable gear is an unjustifiable luxury”. Yes, the temptation to go fast is surely there, but make sure you can afford it! At the time it turned out I could *not* afford it — the Comanche was sold after less than 1 year, having had lost me all the money I got from the sale of my previous humble Cherokee 140. Another thing I see here is people planning on costs for 100-150 hours per year. The mechanic who maintained my former Cherokee always congratulated me for flying 40-50 hours per year. For most people, after the initial excitement of owning a plane is gone (maybe 1 year), jobs, family responsibilities, other hobbies, and costs bring down the flying to 15-20 hours per year. Unless you have clear reasons (and time!) to travel places, there are only so many $100 burgers you’ll want to go to. This is why you see so many planes with low time engines overhauled 20 years ago. Lastly, here is my $0.02 on avionics. They are shiny and nice, but they won’t keep you up in the air. If I were buying a plane, I would focus on getting the best plane I can get for my money — mechanics-wise. A low time engine from the factory or a well-known overhaul shop is what I’d shop for. Or expect a year downtime plus $60-70k to get an overhaul done right. An airframe that was flown a lot and had all the little things that come up every now and then done on time is also important, or be prepared to see all kind of unexpected surprises and costs. You can tell a plane that was treated with respect from the logbooks — the more frequent the entries the better. Avionics would be last on my list, unless you plan to spend huge amounts of time in the clouds (and even then the reliability of electronics over steam gauges is borderline, especially in this day and age when you can buy a backup electronic artificial horizon in a Stratus receiver for $500, if your vacuum pump goes South on you). Spend your money on flying a lot and frequently, know your plane well, and fly with old time flight instructors who have been through a lot. 90% of accidents happen because of stupid pilot decisions and not because the plane did not have the latest electronic gizmo.

My 1970 E has a useful load of about 890 lbs. Equipped with 430W, KX 155, STEC 30, steam gauges. Lightweight starter, everything else is standard. I just went through all the W&B docs since inception, and found about 32 lbs that were added on but forgot to be removed. So if W&B docs are to be believed, the true useful load should be closer to 920 lbs. But like people, planes tend to gain weight over time without noticing…

If anyone has photos of how the replacement process works, it would be greatly appreciated if they'd post (re-post?) them here. The old ones don't show any more. Also, is this something that can be legally done by the owner, or is this what should be part of the owner-assisted annual?

How do you check if your plane has this sniffle valve (first I've heard of it) and if it is a source of a vacuum leak? I can wait until the annual, and will mention it to the mechanic, but I am also curious.

Nope -- tried that and it did not do anything. I suspect vapor lock as mentioned above makes some cylinders not fire occasionally, and the unburnt fuel from those cylinders then catches fire in the muffler.

I have the same issue, and haven't figured out what it is. It smoothes out above 1400 RPM, but is rough below. You can also occasionally hear unburned fuel occasionally making a mini-explosion inside the muffler. My mechanic said not to worry about it for now, and to get the idle mixture adjusted at the annual. Still, not very confidence inspiring. Would like to find out what it is too. Best, Andrei.

The question about whether this is a forever plane is complicated by many issues. My history is that I have owned a total of four different planes (all Pipers, 3 Cherokees and one Comanche) over the past twenty years, and each one was a forever plane for me, until the mission profile changed or I discovered that I could not afford that particular beast. Last plane I had was a Cherokee 180 that I had for 10 years, and had gotten it to where I wanted it to be (but still very much with a steam gauges panel). I switched to the Mooney because I am taking longer trips now, less putzing around in the pattern. So far my thinking about the Mooney is that I like it, but there are things I still don't know about it that may affect the future of owning it. 1) how expensive maintenance will be in the end (after things stabilize after the first/second annual); 2) in the same line, if parts availability will eventually become a real problem; 3) how well it will do in some real-life missions: - in the Cherokee I occasionally had 2 passengers, in the Mooney I have not yet tried putting someone on the rear bench; - I haven't yet tried at all to put a pair of skis in, or a road bike with the wheels off (both of these were doable in the Cherokee); - and finally I haven't tried landing/taking off the grass strip at 2P2 (2250ft), which is a place I loved to go to in the past. Depending on all these factors the E may become more of a forever plane or not. I am not seeing myself spending the money on a glass panel any time soon -- in my mind that money is best spent on fuel and regular maintenance. The description of the panel moves I was writing about was all about getting the panel to where I actually want it to be -- after all these moves I was going to let it be for a few years.

Hello all, I started to think about what I would like my avionics shop to do for me for my next visit (I already have some other issues I need to take the plane to them for). The plane is relatively new to me, 1970 M20E; I've had her for 3 months now. I attach a picture of the left panel below. I don't have a photo of the right panel, but currently on the right are the power instruments (RPM -- an EI electronic tach, and the original Manifold Pressure and Fuel Pressure); as well as a King DME KN64, and the transponder KT76A. Some things in the panel currently are useless: the ADF has not worked for ages, and while the marker beacons probably work, I have not looked at a MB in a long long time. So my plan was for these things to go. I was also hoping to clean up completely the right side of the panel (leave nothing other than the circuit breakers that are now there) so I could install an iPad mini to display traffic and weather from ADS-B. (I will keep an iPhone mounted on the yoke, but I like to have the traffic and weather information clear from the clutter of the maps information.) So there are some questions on how to proceed. One obvious choice is to get rid of the ADF unit, and move in its place the DME and transponder that are currently on the right side. Also it seems like it would not be such a big deal to move the vacuum gauge to where the marker beacons are. So these will probably happen anyway. The other thing that is less obvious how to proceed has to do with the power instruments. It bugs me that when making a power adjustment I need to take my eyes from the main 6. I would much rather have this information in the left panel. I was thinking of moving the RPM indicator to where the vacuum gauge currently is (it is a 2 1/2" hole), after moving the vacuum gauge where the marker beacon lights. This leaves the question of where to put the MP/FP gauge, and how to do it. The how, in my mind has to with the fact that I assume there is a metal fuel line going to the current gauge for fuel pressure, and that may be hard to replace. One idea I had was to maybe leave the current gauge in place, and get a second MP gauge "spliced" from the MP vacuum line that goes to the current indicator. Now about the location of the MP. One possible choice would be to put it where the Strikefinder is, and remove the SF altogether. My previous plane did not have a SF, so I have never used one. My question is: how useful is a Strikefinder in this day and age? I already get radar weather through ADS-B, displayed on my phone, and in the future also on an iPad mini in the right panel. Does the SF give any extra information that would be useful in dodging thunderstorms? Another option would be to get rid of the second VOR head; I can't think of many instances where I would need to use two VORs (the GNS 430W gives me plenty of information about where intersections are). But my flight instructor who is old school in a very good way, insists that backup is also really nice to have. Thoughts? Opinions? How expensive do you think such a project would be, at $120/hour? I probably don't want to spend much more than 1.5AMU on this panel rearrangement, it is perfectly useable as it is. Thanks, Andrei.

Hello all, my flaps have been intermittent lately (1970 M20E, electric flaps and gear) and I have not been able to find anyone to either overhaul my electric motor or to sell me a replacement one. The motor I am talking about is *not* the same one found on the J-models; that one has limit switches -- mine does not, it keeps spinning for as long as you keep the button pressed. The trouble I have with my motor is that it will sometimes get stuck somewhere halfway, and refuse to go either up or down for a few minutes. Not yet a problem, but will be if things get worse. I talked to Aircraft Accessories of Oklahoma, and they said these motors have no overhaul manual, they were meant to be throwaway. So even though it might be easy to replace the brushes they cannot do it without a manual. The part number (from what I can tell) is 750094-003. I have not been able to find a good used one. Any suggestions? Thanks, Andrei.

Okay, heading to the hardware store to see if I can make something up with pipe and elbows.

Congrats! But, wow, 196 hours for a PPL... that's more than 3x the time I took for mine in a 152, 25 years ago. Yes, it's doable, but (especially with current fuel prices) an expensive way to do it -- even ignoring other factors, 1500 gallons of fuel is $7500. I would not recommend to others to do it. And perhaps the views of someone who just transitioned to a Mooney (M20E, after flying for 1400 hours in Cherokees, Comanches and small Cessnas) may be useful for future people who may get this idea of using a Mooney as trainer. I feel that the Mooney is a lot more of a handful to handle than a fixed gear trainer. It is a quirky airplane. Sure, it's fun once you get it. But my transition to a Mooney from a Cherokee was definitely steeper than the transition from a Cherokee to a Comanche. It's not just the gear and the CS prop: there's flaps to manage on takeoff; there's cowl flaps; there's the atypical rubber pucks on the landing gear, which feel very different from other shock absorbers and are more prone to bouncing. Plus you get a much narrower window of approach speeds that you can use on landing. Yes, it teaches good energy management and speed control, but I think it is easier to learn to fly in a more forgiving airplane and transition later, focusing on the specific aspects of Mooney flying once you have all the other details down pat. Just my $.02.

Do you guys have a recommended tow bar to use on an E-model (1970)? I wanted to buy the so-called "deluxe Mooney towbar" from Aircraft Spruce, and they first told me it was backordered and it was going to come in on May 15, then now they told me July 27 is their new date they expect to have them. Since my Mooney did not come with a towbar, I don't think I can wait until then -- it is hard to maneuver the plane into various spots... Thanks!

I know this is topic that everyone feels their opinion is better than everyone else's (ha!), but having just started to fly my 1970 M20E (IO-360 fuel injected) which has many more options to set power than my old 1968 Piper Cherokee 180 (O-360, constant speed prop, no engine monitor) I find that I don't have a good idea what power setting to put, what altitude to cruise at, and whether to run LOP, ROP, or at peak. In my old Cherokee I would generally cruise between 4k and 6k, and set the throttle so the RPM would be around 2400, and then fine tune the mixture and RPM so as to get a fuel flow between 8.8 and 9.3 depending on how fast I wanted to go. That would typically get me between 112 and 117 knots TAS. Now with the Mooney I have many more choices. To use or not to use "Power Boost" (use unfiltered air) -- gets me another 1.5" of MP. To run WOT all the time? To lower RPM well below 2500 for a quieter ride (say, go down to 2300 or even 2200), or stay at 2500 for going faster? What mixture setting to use? All the experienced pilots at my field, and all mechanics I talked to, are against running LOP, so for now I would prefer to stick to ROP operations. Lycoming's definition of best economy mixture is to run the engine at peak EGT, but this seems stupid as it leads to the hottest CHTs. Should I run LOP 20 degrees? Should I run ROP 20 degrees? I generally don't care about getting the absolute most power possible (so would not run 50-100 degrees ROP) but I would like to get good fuel economy and keep my engine as healthy as possible. I have an EDM-700 engine monitor, so I can monitor individual EGT/CHT in real time. I also have the cowl closure mod; I never see CHTs above 320 or 330 degrees, so I think I am doing fine in that respect. Please let me know your thoughts on the above questions, and what typical power settings you usually use. If you could also add what TAS you tend to get at these settings (specify MPH or knots, please) it would be really helpful too. Thanks!

Hello all, I've been having my 1970 M20E for about a month now, and just slowly learning the ropes. A few days ago, after landing, my flaps (electric) would not retract. If I pushed the control switch to "down" I could hear the motor turning (but because the flaps were at the full-down position they would not move); if I pushed the switch to "up" nothing happened. I removed the belly pan to look at the motor (everyone seemed to suggest that the source would be a dirty limit switch at least if this were a J), but in the compartment there were no switches to be found. The motor and gear assembly looked different from what is on the J. After a fair bit of extra jiggling the switch up and down, things suddenly started working on their own, so I closed the belly pan and went flying. Since then the flaps have been working fine. Does anyone know how the system is supposed to work on the E? Is it a mechanical limit -- when the motor reaches a certain position the gear no longer engages and the motor spins freely? As I said, at both up and down ends if I keep the switch on the motor spins but the flaps don't move outside the range. Thanks. Andrei.

I am redoing the interior of my 1970 M20E, and ordered a carpet kit from Airtex. I was wondering what other people's opinions are about whether to glue down the carpets to the floor (in some distant past there was carpet glued down on the floor, but at some time prior to my ownership it was removed; right now there is basically bare metal floor). Or to use velcro to keep it down, but allow for the possibility to remove it for inspections. This question seems particularly pertinent for the center piece carpet, which goes around the emergency gear extension mechanism and the gear down visual indicator. Any opinions?

I am trying to remove the interior of my 1970 M20E, and I got stuck removing the handle pictured below. I guess it is for the air vents for the passengers in the back seat. There is one on each side, and even though I removed the screw in the center, neither one seems to budge at all. I tried shaking it, pulling hard, no success. I don’t want to break them… Any suggestions? Thanks!

Hey Echo! Yes, I am at Morey Field. In the end I decided to follow the advice of the members here and to try to repair my existing panels. I probably will end up buying two panels from Plane Plastics (the door cover and the baggage door cover), but the others I'll try to fix myself. Pirate: are you saying that the two cables (cabin air and heat) go to the same mixing box? Is it the one on the **inside** of the plane, on the firewall, copilot side? I see a fairly complicated air box there with 4 or 5 air hoses going into it... Or is it something that is on the firewall, but on the engine side of it? Thanks again, you guys are great. Another maintenance question. How do I tell if the landing gear "pucks" or "biscuits" on the main gear are worn out? How much should they measure when compressed by the weight of the plane? Or is the only way to measure them is by jacking the plane up and measuring them with no weight on the wheels?

Thanks to all. I flew her yesterday to Wisconsin Aviation Watertown, who bought the Jaeger business a couple of years ago. (They are only 30 miles away from me.) What we decided we would do was the following: -- get their Spatial Interior for the lower half of the door and side panels. They convinced me that this adds substantially more shoulder/elbow space, which in a Mooney is at a premium. (~$2500) -- buy from planeplastics the window trim around the windows and the top half of the door, also the baggage door (~$1000) -- they would repair for me the overhead trim piece and re-cover the parts of the headliner that are covered in (now dirty) vinyl (~$1200) -- they would cut and bind new carpet for the floor (now there is no carpet) (~$1500) This would come up to about $6000, and it would be up to me to trim and cut and install all the pieces. This seems steep to me, but I don't know what else to do. Has anyone had experience with the Spatial Interior? How hard is it to install it and the Plane Plastics pieces? I was kind of taken aback by the fact that they said it would take **them** about a week of work to get everything back in after the pieces are repaired and trimmed. I worry this will take me two whole weeks of work if for them it is one week, and it would also come out looking worse... Any other ideas/comments? I also want to remove the old fiberglass insulation that is behind the panels, and replace it with some modern foam/aluminum backing material. Where does one buy this material from? Thanks!

OK, I bought her and brought her home. N9351V, from Jimmy Garrison at GMax. The whole experience was quite good, though getting back home Monday was a loooong day (2 hours of flying with the instructor to get the insurance checkout, and 7 hours to fly her from San Antonio, TX to Madison, WI). But all is well. Now I am going to start asking newbie questions about the Mooney. To be precise it is a 1970 M20E Chaparral model, electric gear and flaps. Here are my first few questions, I am sure there will be more... 1) All the interior plastic is shot. Many many cracks, it is not repairable. (Well, the good news is that the instrument panel plastic is in good shape.) I was going to buy replacement parts from planeplastic.com, but what they have listed there for a 1970 M20E does not look at all like what I have in my plane. Should I look at other years/models? Or do you guys have any other suggestions for sourcing the plastic trim parts? 2) The mechanic who did the prepurchase inspection sent me many photos of what the plane looks like with the inspection panels removed. What struck me is that the control tubes have a lot of the paint chipped off of them, and are kind of dirty and greasy. Do people do something about this? Clean them up? Repaint them? The primer underneath the paint seems in good shape. 3) While I was flying back, a constant very strong stream of air came into the cabin from the louvered vent that is in the middle console, between the pilot and copilot. (It is the one that is controlled by one of the two levers that are in the center console; the other one selects ram induction air.) My impression was that one should be able to shut it off using the push-pull cable called "cabin air" (which is next to the cabin heat), at the bottom of the instrument panel. But pushing and pulling that cable does absolutely nothing to alter the flow of air. Moreover, the louvered vent has one of the louvers missing, so closing it does not change much. I don't mind it if the temperature outside is ok, but if it gets colder this could be a problem. My question is -- what valve does the "cabin air" cable control? OK, that's it for now, and I'll ask more questions as they come. Thanks! Andrei.

I am now in talks with Jimmy at GMax about that 1970 E-model. It is very close to what I need. I'll let you guys know how it goes!

The J looks like a wonderful bird, but it is well outside my price range. Let's say that $100k is already a bit high for what I can afford. That is why I posted this in the "Early Mooneys" forum.

The plane shown by CChris is very close to what I would be looking for. I will talk to the owner and see where he's at with it. If you know of any others similar in condition and equipment, I would be very happy to hear about them.

Hello Mooney owners, I posted in this forum about a week ago about finding a mechanic in the upper Midwest, because I needed a prepurchase inspection on a Mooney I had hoped to buy. Unfortunately the negotiations for that plane have fallen apart, so I am still on the lookout for a good plane. My requirements are: relatively low time engine (<1000 hrs preferred, but could go up to 1400); well-maintained, so I don't find myself having a long list of things to do soon; paint and interior good, say a 7 on both. (I'd rather not have to repaint or replace the interior, I want to fly it...) I am fine with a C or an E, with a slight preference for an E; I don't need the extra space of an F. The list of "would be nice to have" comes next, in decreasing order of importance. Speed mods would be really nice -- I want to go fast (that's why I am moving to a Mooney from my Cherokee 180). A three-blade prop (for making it easier to fly into a grass strip I sometimes want to fly to) is a plus; so is also a standard 6-pack instrument panel, though none of these is a must. Perhaps the most important concern for me is to find a plane that its previous owner clearly cared for -- first and foremost mechanically, but also to some extent esthetically. Please PM me if you have such a plane, or if you know of someone who thinks of selling one. My budget covers a pretty wide range, so I am not going to list it here. But from what I've seen on various forums there are planes here and there that fit my budget; but all of them fail to meet one of the criteria above, or have just been sold Thanks a lot, Andrei.

Hello fellow Mooney owners, I am hoping to become one of you! I am a 1200 hour private pilot, instrument certified. Most of my time is in Piper Cherokees, though I have some time in a Comanche and a bit in Cessnas. I am looking at buying a 1965 Mooney M20C which is located in South Eastern Minnesota. My mechanic is busy for the next couple of months, so he cannot do a prepurchase inspection. I am looking for recommendations for a mechanic with good Mooney experience in the general area of SE Minnesota, NW Wisconsin, perhaps NE Iowa. Any names that come to mind? Thank you, Andrei.